rodwhaincamo
New member
Other than the Barnes XPB and Speer's Gold Dots are there any others out there?
Bonded or solid copper bullets...
- Thread starter rodwhaincamo
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BurkGlocker
New member
Well, Winchester has the PDX1 but it looks like a knock off of the Gold Dot. But a question back at you, you wanting them for reloading or factory ammo?
Magtech makes their First Defense line of solid copper ammo. Its performance reviews are iffy depending on where you look. Golden Sabers are also bonded and tend to hold together very well. I think the new Hornady LeverRevolution stuff with the FTX bullets are also bonded, and the Ciritcal Defense line ammo too.
It is in no way a Gold Dot knockoff. Put them side by side and they look - and act - completely different. The PDX1 acts just like the Black Talons or SXTs did, except the jacket is welded via a proprietary process. In my experience, Gold Dots usually flatten a little more and mushroom. The PDX1s open up more like flower petals and retain their dimensions and design a little better.
The only issue I see with them is that expansion is a bit more delayed. The PDX is the new FBI round, and thus was designed with more barrier penetration in mind. That could prove problematic for the average citizen put in a certain situation where over penetration could be a big issue.
It is in no way a Gold Dot knockoff. Put them side by side and they look - and act - completely different. The PDX1 acts just like the Black Talons or SXTs did, except the jacket is welded via a proprietary process. In my experience, Gold Dots usually flatten a little more and mushroom. The PDX1s open up more like flower petals and retain their dimensions and design a little better.
The only issue I see with them is that expansion is a bit more delayed. The PDX is the new FBI round, and thus was designed with more barrier penetration in mind. That could prove problematic for the average citizen put in a certain situation where over penetration could be a big issue.
Ooooooohhoo I'm about to make your day! You're not gonna believe what Guncrafter Industries made. Go to www.50GI.com and under general topics go to the, "185schp" thread. There quite honestly isn't another bullet design on the market like it. You'll see. It'l blow your mind, It'll blow this whole threads' mind. 
BurkGlocker
New member
I've got an expanded PDX1 and Gold Dot sitting right in front of me, and they look alot alike, except for the 'talons' are more pronounced on the PDX1 than that of the fold overs of the Gold Dot. I'm really saying that they look alot alike when they are expanded, and please, dont quote me on the 'knock off', it was jsut a turn of phrase.
rodwhaincamo
New member
Whars:
For now I'm stuck with factory, but I've been pushing a basic reload setup as THE ideal birthday gift. And so I'm planning on handloading soon. She's great at awesome gifts! Got my 44 Mag and a bass guitar the last 2!!!
For now I'm stuck with factory, but I've been pushing a basic reload setup as THE ideal birthday gift. And so I'm planning on handloading soon. She's great at awesome gifts! Got my 44 Mag and a bass guitar the last 2!!!
What are you looking to hunt with your 44 mag?? Barnes are great bullets but other hp can be problematic at times and with a 44 you could find that a gas checked lead or semi-soft blend would make a better thin skined bullet up to Hardcaste bullets for danerous game like hogs and bear. I have had both good and some bad luck throught the years with hp in a 357 and yes i know your loading 44 rounds. Other than the X and it is the best hp bullet cost for some is a major hold up with that bullet. Even most soft points work very well for thin skinned hunting loads. Just stay with heavier wieght bullets.
rodwhaincamo
New member
Hardluk:
My 44 was bought with hog protection as it's main purpose. It's doubling as HP right now. I'm considering moving to the mountains of Colorado or New Mexico. I'm not proficient enough with it to hunt with yet. I seem to have developed a flinch. I don't understand why since I feel the recoil isn't terrible. But I would like to one day. I'm not necessarily looking for 44 bullets though. I'm thinking of a better self defense handgun. Something that can be concealed, but not necessarily small. I can conceal a full size 1911. Considering the 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. I do plan to get a 44 Mag rifle, and want a good bullet that won't fragment.
My 44 was bought with hog protection as it's main purpose. It's doubling as HP right now. I'm considering moving to the mountains of Colorado or New Mexico. I'm not proficient enough with it to hunt with yet. I seem to have developed a flinch. I don't understand why since I feel the recoil isn't terrible. But I would like to one day. I'm not necessarily looking for 44 bullets though. I'm thinking of a better self defense handgun. Something that can be concealed, but not necessarily small. I can conceal a full size 1911. Considering the 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. I do plan to get a 44 Mag rifle, and want a good bullet that won't fragment.
Im still not convinced on the 50GI yet,but they make a good argument with ammo!
They would go into business and make that bullet in other calibers and make a mint! Its like an airplane propeller going threw your body.
Another pic but too big.
http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/attachments/f56/6483d1254394297-glock-20-50-gi-comparison2.jpg
They would go into business and make that bullet in other calibers and make a mint! Its like an airplane propeller going threw your body.
Another pic but too big.
http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/attachments/f56/6483d1254394297-glock-20-50-gi-comparison2.jpg
Why not convinced DasFriek? You spoke yourself the lethality of the rounds. By the way, thanks for the pics!
Anyway rodwhaincamo, to answer your PM. Alex Zimmermann of Guncrafter Industries, designed, produces, and sells the SCHP's in 185gr and 230gr. They aren't posted on the website yet, but they ARE for sale. (With a phone call, or email) the reloading dies, brass, and projectiles are listed on the site and at a fair price. DasFriek is probably right those rounds would be amazing for any caliber produced in. But, unfortunitly for the rest of you, those little jewels are privlage just for us owners of 50GI. (And Glock conversion)
Anyway rodwhaincamo, to answer your PM. Alex Zimmermann of Guncrafter Industries, designed, produces, and sells the SCHP's in 185gr and 230gr. They aren't posted on the website yet, but they ARE for sale. (With a phone call, or email) the reloading dies, brass, and projectiles are listed on the site and at a fair price. DasFriek is probably right those rounds would be amazing for any caliber produced in. But, unfortunitly for the rest of you, those little jewels are privlage just for us owners of 50GI. (And Glock conversion)
I like penetration over caliber,but the expansion of that round does overcome some lack of penetration.
Im just the type who prefers a 10mm full power load,and would carry a Rowland .460 is i could get away without that compensator.
It surely can do the job,just its method isn't my preferred way.
orionengnr
New member
Ummm, what lethality would that be?
Potential lethality?
Theoretical lethality?
Predicted lethality?
Certainly not documented lethality, as I doubt anyone has been shot with one yet.
How about the doubts expressed in the thread you referenced (yes, I read all nine pages last night)
A 185 gr in a .50 cal? Why? The real benefit of a large caliber should be a heavy bullet with good-to-stellar expansion. Several posters asked about a 250-300 gr bullet.
And yes, I "get" the solid copper concept. I have CorBon DPXs loaded in several of my carry guns, in calibers from .380 to 45 acp. But the .50 GI is a short cartridge, and the powder capacity suffers as the bullet length increases.
So no, you're not "rocking my world" with a $3000 pistol firing a 185 gr. 50 caliber load.
If it's your cup of tea, rock on and Semper Fi. I'll stick with my "old" .45acp 1911 and my S&W revolvers.
Well I'm glad to see you did your homework...
But let's keep the common sence aspect in this debate. To imply, (which is what you did, orionengnr) that just because a person has not been shot to death with this bullet, it's "leathality" cannot be determinded. Come on! How silly! The stats are there, the numbers, the pictures. I thought about going on a bit more indetail about this aspect of the argument but I don't feel it's warrented. A projectile is going into a target at a high rate of speed and expanding further than ANY round YOU or ANYBODY else can claim to have EVER seen. All the while retaining 100% of it's weight! What exactly is so "un-proven" about this round? It is quite simply a .50ACP. To dismiss it would be to dismiss the .45ACP (And if ya tried that, there'd be a whole slew of guys to argu with then. ). The only differnce is that for 99 years there has been .05" of legal space above the the head of .45. And for the life of my I don't know why nobody reached up and grabbed it. You read on the post I refernced the 185gr SCHP, but did you become aware while on the site that after the "controversey" of shallow penatration, GI came out with a 230gr SCHP at 1000fps?! Now it's EQUAL in weight to what any heavey/slow .45 guy would pack. All still while maintaining much lower pressure and muzzle blast than .45+p, all still while having an entry wound of half an inch, all still while having an expanion of OVER an inch Ya know... I just don't understand why the "haters" of the 50GI? Ya see facts like that, and it makes me wonder, so much about why credit's not given where it's due.
If you want "heavier" rounds you know quite well there is a 300gr & a 275gr avaible.
You knock the 3k price... but that is in no way a "discredit" to the effectivness of the round. Guncrafter Industries are some of the finest 1911's made in the world. There are countless repituable testimonies on that. The .45 they make is that expensive. Some people like the "best money can buy" and that's "ok" just the same it is that some people get by with a $300 guitar happy as a clam, and some feel a $3000 sounds just a little bit better.
The round can also be fired from a more afordable platform... the Glock conversion kit $599
But, as you closed you last stement about it being the individual's cup of tea, and all that good stuff. I agree. To each his own. I just wanted to correct the facts.
But let's keep the common sence aspect in this debate. To imply, (which is what you did, orionengnr) that just because a person has not been shot to death with this bullet, it's "leathality" cannot be determinded.
Come on! How silly! The stats are there, the numbers, the pictures. I thought about going on a bit more indetail about this aspect of the argument but I don't feel it's warrented. A projectile is going into a target at a high rate of speed and expanding further than ANY round YOU or ANYBODY else can claim to have EVER seen. All the while retaining 100% of it's weight! What exactly is so "un-proven" about this round? It is quite simply a .50ACP. To dismiss it would be to dismiss the .45ACP (And if ya tried that, there'd be a whole slew of guys to argu with then. ). The only differnce is that for 99 years there has been .05" of legal space above the the head of .45. And for the life of my I don't know why nobody reached up and grabbed it. You read on the post I refernced the 185gr SCHP, but did you become aware while on the site that after the "controversey" of shallow penatration, GI came out with a 230gr SCHP at 1000fps?! Now it's EQUAL in weight to what any heavey/slow .45 guy would pack. All still while maintaining much lower pressure and muzzle blast than .45+p, all still while having an entry wound of half an inch, all still while having an expanion of OVER an inch Ya know... I just don't understand why the "haters" of the 50GI? Ya see facts like that, and it makes me wonder, so much about why credit's not given where it's due. If you want "heavier" rounds you know quite well there is a 300gr & a 275gr avaible.
You knock the 3k price... but that is in no way a "discredit" to the effectivness of the round. Guncrafter Industries are some of the finest 1911's made in the world. There are countless repituable testimonies on that. The .45 they make is that expensive. Some people like the "best money can buy" and that's "ok" just the same it is that some people get by with a $300 guitar happy as a clam, and some feel a $3000 sounds just a little bit better.
The round can also be fired from a more afordable platform... the Glock conversion kit $599
But, as you closed you last stement about it being the individual's cup of tea, and all that good stuff. I agree. To each his own. I just wanted to correct the facts.
orionengnr
New member
I didn't "imply" anything.
I stated factually that we are talking about potential. By definition, that means it has not been proven.
Stats? Numbers? Pictures? Great. I am not ready to get all googly-eyed about something that is essentially a prototype. And I'll state categorically that this thread did not, does not, will not "rock my world" as you stated.
If and when the .50 GI is actually proven to be a) a viable SD round/platform and b) superior to the .45, get back to me. I'm not holding my breath.
I don't buy into the "flavor of the month". I don't own any .40s, .357 Sig, or 10mm. Doesn't mean they're not worth anything; just means I have no use for them. I'm perfectly happy with .45acp, .357 Mag, .41 Mag and .45 LC.
Note that missing from that list are .44 Mag and .50AE, as well as others powerful handgun cartridges...
I don't claim to be an expert, but I've never heard of Guncrafter Industries. If I'm going to spend $2k on up, I'm going with Wilson. Bear, Brown, etc...
I stated factually that we are talking about potential. By definition, that means it has not been proven.
Stats? Numbers? Pictures? Great. I am not ready to get all googly-eyed about something that is essentially a prototype. And I'll state categorically that this thread did not, does not, will not "rock my world" as you stated.
If and when the .50 GI is actually proven to be a) a viable SD round/platform and b) superior to the .45, get back to me. I'm not holding my breath.
I don't buy into the "flavor of the month". I don't own any .40s, .357 Sig, or 10mm. Doesn't mean they're not worth anything; just means I have no use for them. I'm perfectly happy with .45acp, .357 Mag, .41 Mag and .45 LC.
Note that missing from that list are .44 Mag and .50AE, as well as others powerful handgun cartridges...
I don't claim to be an expert, but I've never heard of Guncrafter Industries. If I'm going to spend $2k on up, I'm going with Wilson. Bear, Brown, etc...
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Using techniques from the book, "Bullet Penatration" one can determine the amount of damaged tissue would result from a particular bullet and it's permanent wound cavity. The 50GI SCHP damages 119 grams vs. 55 grams for .45acp jhp. 40 is concidered "adaquate."
But then again, none of this matters to orionengnr. I feel like nothing in my previous post was read. I don't have anything to rebuttal against because, nothing was brought forth to deny everything else I posted. Just ignored in such a way to make us go round in circles. The round is not "un_proven" because it hasn't kelled anybody yet. By that logic, I can say the .45acp in your chamber is un-proven because it itself has yet to go down range and kill. We all know it will obviously. How do we know this? BECAUSE IT'S A BULLET!!! That's what bullets do. If I make a black powder cannon in my garage and load it with all kind of sharp pointy objects, or a billard ball I can safly assume if I ever fired it at somebody it would kill them. Do I need to test this "therory" to logically know this? No. I do not. Duh.
But... I want to leave this post with respect. I can clearly see by your post about being kinda old fashioned and set in your ways when it comes to your weapons. That's fine. You wanna stick with 45acp, by all means! I love 45acp myself. That's all good to go. I'm not trying to sell you one. But... all I'm askin is for you to give credit where credit is due. Will you never admit the 50GI certainly looks pretty legit, regardless of wheather or not you want to buy one?
And FYI... Vic Tibbetts and Alex Zimmermann both left Wilson combat and started GI. Both are master pistol smiths and Alex was head of r&d for wilson for 8 years. Each gun that leaves that shop recieves no less than 40 hours of hand fitting.
But then again, none of this matters to orionengnr. I feel like nothing in my previous post was read. I don't have anything to rebuttal against because, nothing was brought forth to deny everything else I posted. Just ignored in such a way to make us go round in circles. The round is not "un_proven" because it hasn't kelled anybody yet. By that logic, I can say the .45acp in your chamber is un-proven because it itself has yet to go down range and kill. We all know it will obviously. How do we know this? BECAUSE IT'S A BULLET!!! That's what bullets do. If I make a black powder cannon in my garage and load it with all kind of sharp pointy objects, or a billard ball I can safly assume if I ever fired it at somebody it would kill them. Do I need to test this "therory" to logically know this? No. I do not. Duh.
But... I want to leave this post with respect. I can clearly see by your post about being kinda old fashioned and set in your ways when it comes to your weapons. That's fine. You wanna stick with 45acp, by all means! I love 45acp myself. That's all good to go. I'm not trying to sell you one. But... all I'm askin is for you to give credit where credit is due. Will you never admit the 50GI certainly looks pretty legit, regardless of wheather or not you want to buy one?
And FYI... Vic Tibbetts and Alex Zimmermann both left Wilson combat and started GI. Both are master pistol smiths and Alex was head of r&d for wilson for 8 years. Each gun that leaves that shop recieves no less than 40 hours of hand fitting.
It sounds like you think of the bullet as spinning rapidly as it travels through the badguy's body.
But it doesn't. It will rotate only at the same rotation (or less) that it had when it left the barrel. For discussion, lets call that one turn in 10 inches.
So when it hits the target it cannot be turning faster than one turn in 10 inches of forward movement. And as the bullet expands, the rotation will slow as it moves to a stop. So if penetration is 10 inches, it might rotate as much as 1 turn, maximum. Actually it will be less.
So it is not a fan/propeller/buzz-saw etc.
Bart Noir
It's so easy to ask a simple question, with such a complex answer.
At least you could do is tell why you need to know, and what you already know, instead of people writing paragraphs, after paragraphs telling you something we, and you already know.
Are you looking for that another magic bullet, or are you just doing some research?
rodwhaincamo
New member
Elvis:
I have been dropping hints (blatantly telling her) that I need a reloading bench. At the moment I only own a 44 Mag revolver. But I just can't get ammo in general, much less what I want. Until I get a better HD handgun I need to do what I can for my 44. At the moment it's loaded with Glaser Safety Slugs (Mag) since i live in an apartment. I want a quality HP loaded to Spl +P (mag case - 350-500 ft/lbs). I'd prefer some sort of bonded or copper bullet - something with a 90% + weight retention. But I also want to load up some hunting rounds that also keep 90% +. And eventually I'd be handloading something along the lines of 9mm/40 SW/45 ACP, although I'm very impressed by what I've seen of the 50 GI. Too expensive for me and ammo's too hard to come by. I chose 44 Mag because of this same reason. So much more available (types) and cheaper than 454/460/480/500... Sorry for dragging on...
All I was aware of (handgun wise) being bonded was the Gold Dot. And Barnes making the only copper bullet. I saw the 50GI bullet and was impressed with the expansion and wondered who made their bullet, and do they make any other calibers. And are there any other manufacturers of them? For now I am interested in both loaded ammo and just the bullets themselves.
I have been dropping hints (blatantly telling her) that I need a reloading bench. At the moment I only own a 44 Mag revolver. But I just can't get ammo in general, much less what I want. Until I get a better HD handgun I need to do what I can for my 44. At the moment it's loaded with Glaser Safety Slugs (Mag) since i live in an apartment. I want a quality HP loaded to Spl +P (mag case - 350-500 ft/lbs). I'd prefer some sort of bonded or copper bullet - something with a 90% + weight retention. But I also want to load up some hunting rounds that also keep 90% +. And eventually I'd be handloading something along the lines of 9mm/40 SW/45 ACP, although I'm very impressed by what I've seen of the 50 GI. Too expensive for me and ammo's too hard to come by. I chose 44 Mag because of this same reason. So much more available (types) and cheaper than 454/460/480/500... Sorry for dragging on...
All I was aware of (handgun wise) being bonded was the Gold Dot. And Barnes making the only copper bullet. I saw the 50GI bullet and was impressed with the expansion and wondered who made their bullet, and do they make any other calibers. And are there any other manufacturers of them? For now I am interested in both loaded ammo and just the bullets themselves.
rodwhaincamo
New member
Hunley:
Are you sure that Hornady's Critical Defense is bonded? Didn't see anything about that on their sight. I've read some tests that showed the Golden Sabers performed the worst overall compared to many other "quality" HPs. I see Double Tap uses something called a Bonded Defense HP, and a Controlled Expansion HP. I've heard someone loads an expanding FMJ.
Are you sure that Hornady's Critical Defense is bonded? Didn't see anything about that on their sight. I've read some tests that showed the Golden Sabers performed the worst overall compared to many other "quality" HPs. I see Double Tap uses something called a Bonded Defense HP, and a Controlled Expansion HP. I've heard someone loads an expanding FMJ.
BurkGlocker
New member
Magtech puts out copper bullets, but dont expand near what Barnes' bullets do. I have some expanded .45 bullets, and the Magtech bullet is .750", the Barnes .835". As for bonded pistol ammunition, you have Federal Tatical Bonded, Winchester Ranger Bonded, Gold Dot, and Golden Saber Bonded. I am probably forgeting one or two, but the only one that you can get as a component are the Gold Dots.
You can get both Barnes and Magtech copper bullets as components, but being all copper, they are really expensive. They have both bullets loaded in factory ammo, but the same applies to the ammo as it does to the bullets, expensive. Worth the money? In my opinion, yes, but you'd have to be rich to be able to test functionality of the ammo in your weapon of choice.
You can get both Barnes and Magtech copper bullets as components, but being all copper, they are really expensive. They have both bullets loaded in factory ammo, but the same applies to the ammo as it does to the bullets, expensive. Worth the money? In my opinion, yes, but you'd have to be rich to be able to test functionality of the ammo in your weapon of choice.