Black talon and legal liability

[simonov jr]

I have been carrying Black Talon in my CCW gun for years and thankfully have never had to fire any in defense of life and limb. However I've sometimes wondered if the fact that Winchester withdrew it from the market could create a legal liability. Specifically, could an attorney convincingly argue to a potential jury that "he used ammo that was so vicious that it was BANNED!!!" (frothing at the mouth of course). Is this a real or imagined problem with Black Talon? Are there any other commercial ammunition types which are frowned on by juries (besides those flame-thrower 12-ga rounds? ; )

 

[Lawyer Daggit]

You will always run the risk that someone could choose to cross examine on the basis of a banned 'viscious' bullet type- go for something more innocuous.

 

[dasmi]

I was told by a firearms instructor to find out what the local PD uses, and then if ever asked in court why you chose that brand and type of ammo, you can say "because that's what the police use, so it must be good."
So find out if your PD uses black talon

 

[dasmi]

by the way, I believe, and I could be wrong, that they pulled black talon from the market, but released basically the same ammo under a less "scary" name.

 

[T WARD]

Black talon was not discontinued. The name was changed to "Ranger Talon" and sales restricted to law enforcement. Also some cosmetic changes were made. The case went from nickel plated to brass or brass to nickel. I don't remember which, and I don't believe the bullet is still black. If you are concearned about the courts, go with hydro-shok. L.E. shooting stats show it to be very effective.

 

[JimR]

I have wondered if there are any issues like this, regarding +P+ ammo.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

There is no justified additional liability. The notion of such problems seems to be pretty much just a stupid myth started by a gun "expert" and then oft repeated in his publications such that people believe it as fact without any direct knowledge of there ever having been a problem. see http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=65021&highlight=ayoobian

The same holds true for the notion of carrying what the local PD carries. I too have been told that by instructors, but it is also a myth. Like the other, it is a myth by the same gun "expert" and has never panned out. In fact, Ayoob put out an article recently that indicated that carrying what the cops carry could most definitely be problematic. Ayoob has never documented a person being prosecuted or sued for the legal use of handloads, but gives two examples of cops being sued for their department issued choice of factory ammo. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=89289&highlight=ayoobian

In other words, of the known legal examples, carrying what the cops carry seems more prone to getting a person sued as the cops get sued for what they carry. The sample is terribly small and so is not statistically justified, but these are the only ammo suits Ayoob has discussed in regard to ammo choice and my survey over at THR did not turn up any other.

Before somebody jumps in to claim that just because 'it' hasn't happened yet does not mean 'it' won't happen, hence the need for following Ayoob's liability warnings, ammo choice should never be about what one thinks will be the least legally problematic at some point in time in the future, after a gun fight, that may or may not ever come to pass (either the fight or potential suit). Choice of defense ammo should be based on what works in your gun, that you shoot well, and that performs well in regard to terminal ballistics. Remember that the goal of such ammo is to protect your life. Choosing an ammo that meets some imaginary PC standards will likely mean picking an ammo that is less than ideal for self defense and in making such a choice, you lower your chances for survival in a fight.

 

[Bogie]

1) Black Talon now has collector status - why carry 'em?

2) There's plenty of other rounds that are just as good.

3) Don't even give a prosecutor an opening - after all, if you're gonna premediate offing a mugger, a rapist, or an armed robber...

 

[patent]

>>>>>In other words, of the known legal examples, carrying what the cops carry seems more prone to getting a person sued as the cops get sued for what they carry.​

I'd agree with this if you had said that the prosecuter can just as easily attack your decision to carry what the cops carry as he can attack your decision to carry a handload, etc. A prosecuter can try to latch on to anything to criticize you.

That said, personally, were I to carry, and to get in this situation, and they asked me what I carried and why, my response would run something like this:

"Well, I'm not really an expert in handgun ammunition. So, when my son's cub scout troop was touring our local police station I asked the officers what sort of ammunition they carried, and I used that. I figured it would be safe 'cause they know what they're doing."

Yes, the prosecuter can still attack that, but hey. Have at it. I'm comfortable with that fight.

Of course, all that assumes that I have properly tested the police round in my gun and it works.

>>>>>>The sample is terribly small and so is not statistically justified,​

Very true, all this is speculation. Still, its more fun to talk about when we are speculating a bit.

patent

 

[918sgt]

Black Talon

Winchester changed from nickle to brass cases and retained the same bullets calling it Ranger. At our PD we changed to Speer Gold Dot. Better results. Save the Black Talon in the boxes. I've seen it as high as $75 at gun shows.

 

[Mute]

The old Black Talon bullets have been improved upon by Winchester. The newer Ranger SXT is a descendant of the Black Talon and is considered one of the best loadings for .45acp currently on the market.

 

[Avizpls]

We did some "phone book" testing in my back yard. Nothing scientific. We shot a few .40S&W Hydra-shoks Gold dots and the Winchester Ranger SXT (LEO) Frankly, the Winchesters sucked. Again, this was a random "hey lets try THIS" kind of test. Visually, they fared not even as well as a hydra shok in .380ACP

I'd carry something else anyways. Good advice was to carry what the local PD does

 

[70-101]

In my opinion, a person should carry the same ammo brand and caliber as there local police dept.

 

[k_dawg]

carry what works best in your firearm, and which has a proven track record.

 

[tyme]

I don't think Winchester SXT is the same as Winchester Ranger T.

Ranger T: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?item=31182871
SXT: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=358719

The "LEO" policy is Winchester's; there is no legal restriction on owning or using Ranger T ammo.

There's no doubt that Ranger T ammo is good, but it's also overpriced. Police departments can get Ranger T for $10-11 per box of 50, even less if they buy it in bulk. Google for ra9t or ra45t and you'll find a bunch of police department supply orders. You can do the same with some other companies' high-end ammo product numbers.

 

[HighVelocity]

230gr +P Ranger T is what I carry every day. I like it because it's got a good reputation in the law enforcement community and it's super accurate and reliable in my CCW.

I was concerned and asked an attourney before I started carrying it and he said not to give it a second thought.

 

[Zekewolf]

There have never been any legal liability problems with ammo choice. It's worse than an internet myth; it's an internet lie.

 

[Samuel2001]

There is no such law in the books baning Win. Black Tallons!
Winchester decided to pull them from production themselves(Bad Publicity!). The Ranger/SXTs ARE a direct decendant of the Black Tallons, I've shot them both into swimong pools and both expanded to very similar shapes, with tallons and all. All they did was clean them up along with the way they were advertised.
The original advertising made them sound like they were made to kill humans only.

 

[straightShot]

If you're carrying old ammo, be careful that bullets don't get set back into their cases from repeatedly loading and unloading the same cartridge over and over into the chamber.

One should shoot their carry ammo now and again, and buy more!

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This issue is complex and the nuances aren't well understood.

DNS is correct as far as I can tell that it is difficult to find through legal search issues cases that turned on the nature of the ammo used. However, I've been told by lawyers - and I am not one, that the rhetoric used and exaggerated rhetoric a lawyer used in examining witnesses or making a summation won't make it into the databases. Thus, if some lawyer does make this point, we might never see it.

So do we rely on Ayoob's anecdotes and possibilities?

If one observes some trials, then you can see lawyers exaggerating and emphasizing the weapon. For instance in the DC sniper trial, the DA started the trial by slowing assembling the dreaded assault rifle for the jury. Clearly he was doing that for the drama but that would never get into the databases. There are other tapes like that that I've seen.

There is also a great deal of legal/psychological research on how to influence juries. Several experiments have tested weapons related issues and to make a long story short, in ambiguous cases of self-defense - usually revolving around whether one should have retreated - simulated juries have been influenced by gender, race and the appearance of the weapon.

As far as I know, and I follow this stuff, research hasn't been done on bullet type - a Black Talon vs. some standard police department load.

The research also shows that the type of scenario is very important and a good shoot will overwhelm the appearance issues.

Thus, it is very tough to demonstrate a bullet effect with cases that we can find with legal databases. There are suggestions that it could be a factor. A good lawyer knowing this literature can defuse it.

So the person's decision is that given the possibility of an effect, should it entire into the choice of ammo? That's for the user to decide.

In a sense the debate is like the tactical reload debate or how to release your slide in a slide lock situation. There is much repetitive discussion in the gun world, but one is hard pressed to find real instances where the opposing sides can demonstrate powerful effects.

I wouldn't carry the Black Talons as they offer little than other rounds and there may some risk in court. However, my home defense long arm is a dreaded AR-15 and they certainly have a negative karma that can be demonstrated in the legal simulation and psychological literature.

I think that if one doesn't go for the bland and safe, the chance that you will be crucified in court is dependent on it interacting with it being a good shoot. That's the most important variable. With a knowledgeable attorney, the good shoot should carry the day.