Here's a question I've been wondering about: Can you use black powder in lieu of smokeless powder when loading for modern firearms? I know that there can be problems using smokeless powder in black powder guns (although I think some can handle reduced charges), but what about the reverse?
Black Powder in modern guns???
- Thread starter Skans
- Start date
In semi-autos you'll have a problem. The recoil pulse will be really different, enough to mess with how the springs work, plus it'll clog in short order. In a pinch you could "rack it for each shot" though.
But revolvers, bolt-actions, break-opens, pumpguns, leverguns, sure. No problem. Be sure and clean them quickly of course.
One possible issue though: a lot of the modern cartridges don't have enough case capacity to get enough BP in there to work right. 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP...you COULD run 'em on BP but the power will be down. The 10mm has a fair amount of case capacity, wouldn't be crippled as bad. Same with modern rifle rounds...223 fr'instance would turn into a popgun. Still "lethal" but nowhere near the power level.
The big straight-wall cartridges like the 357Mag, 44Mag, shotshells, 45-70, they'll work great. They'll be down on power of course but still very effective.
But revolvers, bolt-actions, break-opens, pumpguns, leverguns, sure. No problem. Be sure and clean them quickly of course.
One possible issue though: a lot of the modern cartridges don't have enough case capacity to get enough BP in there to work right. 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP...you COULD run 'em on BP but the power will be down. The 10mm has a fair amount of case capacity, wouldn't be crippled as bad. Same with modern rifle rounds...223 fr'instance would turn into a popgun. Still "lethal" but nowhere near the power level.
The big straight-wall cartridges like the 357Mag, 44Mag, shotshells, 45-70, they'll work great. They'll be down on power of course but still very effective.
spclPatrolGroup
New member
Yes, the cartridges origionally designed for black powder like .45 LC, 45/70, 30/30, work really well. But black powder is extremly corrosive, even the newer substitutes will leave rust causing crud everywhere, with possibly the exception of Blackhorn 209, which is actually a nitrocellulose base (I think). You will be detail stripping and cleaning your guns frequently and often.
Terminus009
New member
Just discovered North American Arms makes a couple of .22 pocket revolvers especially for cap & ball. They sell them c/w loading tools. Kinda cool!
Missionary
New member
Good morning
I think I have shot BP in all my calibers except those rifles that are semi-loaders. You do not want BP fouling getting into recoil systems. But in long cases like the 30-06 there is lots of room to get good velocity. With a 180 grain cast bullet you can plan on about 1500 fps.
But remember the basics with BP. Fill the case enough so the BP is compressed at least 1/8 " . The cast bullet needs to be lubbed with natural lubes(not oil based) like beeswax + oliveoil. Enough lube must be present to reach the end of the barrel so I dobber some on the bullet nose before loading even though the bullet grooves are already lubed. The lube helps keep the residue soft. And you possibly will need to wet patch the bore every 5 shots , maybe less, as fast twist rifling clogs up rather fast.
So give it a try.. slip one in on a shooting pard... naturally let him shoot your rifle.. and do not forget to clean the barrel & brass with soapy water after.
Mike in Peru
I think I have shot BP in all my calibers except those rifles that are semi-loaders. You do not want BP fouling getting into recoil systems. But in long cases like the 30-06 there is lots of room to get good velocity. With a 180 grain cast bullet you can plan on about 1500 fps.
But remember the basics with BP. Fill the case enough so the BP is compressed at least 1/8 " . The cast bullet needs to be lubbed with natural lubes(not oil based) like beeswax + oliveoil. Enough lube must be present to reach the end of the barrel so I dobber some on the bullet nose before loading even though the bullet grooves are already lubed. The lube helps keep the residue soft. And you possibly will need to wet patch the bore every 5 shots , maybe less, as fast twist rifling clogs up rather fast.
So give it a try.. slip one in on a shooting pard... naturally let him shoot your rifle.. and do not forget to clean the barrel & brass with soapy water after.
Mike in Peru
Crunchy Frog
New member
The original cartridges were loaded with black powder. There is a category in SASS called "Frontier Cartridge" that requires black powder.
Please buy a quality manual that gives load data and instructions for BP. There are some important safety rules that you must follow.
Please buy a quality manual that gives load data and instructions for BP. There are some important safety rules that you must follow.
The 30-30 or 30WCF, was not originally designed for black powder. It was our first commercially available smokeless high velocity sporting cartridge.
It was a very effective killer of game up to and including large game in North America in it's time. We have now determined that all those old guys were full of it, and you really need a great big fast magnum of some stripe to cleanly take game. Preferably something with very expensive ammo.
It was a very effective killer of game up to and including large game in North America in it's time. We have now determined that all those old guys were full of it, and you really need a great big fast magnum of some stripe to cleanly take game. Preferably something with very expensive ammo.
"The 30-30 or 30WCF, was not originally designed for black powder"
Oh so correct 30 cal 30 grains of cordite. Why do people insist that 30-30 is an old black powder cartridge. 38/40, 32/40,44/40 etc all black powder but 30WCF or .30 US (30-40 Krage) all smokeless cartridges.
Now The original Black Powder Cartridges using black powder will shoot more accurately with the original loads in the original barrels, in modern smokeless barrels with modern twists not so much. The velocities of the older Black Powder cartridges relied on bullet weight not velocity for energy. And by the way Hiram Maxim developed his machine gun in 577/450 BP for the British, so BP will work in auto loaders but you need a heavy bullet.
Mace
Oh so correct 30 cal 30 grains of cordite. Why do people insist that 30-30 is an old black powder cartridge. 38/40, 32/40,44/40 etc all black powder but 30WCF or .30 US (30-40 Krage) all smokeless cartridges.
Now The original Black Powder Cartridges using black powder will shoot more accurately with the original loads in the original barrels, in modern smokeless barrels with modern twists not so much. The velocities of the older Black Powder cartridges relied on bullet weight not velocity for energy. And by the way Hiram Maxim developed his machine gun in 577/450 BP for the British, so BP will work in auto loaders but you need a heavy bullet.
Mace
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Oh so correct 30 cal 30 grains of cordite."
Sorry, that's incorrect.
Cordite is a very specific formulation of double-base smokeless powder used almost exclusively by the British and Commonwealth nations.
It was, at the time of its development in the late 1880s, a military secret.
Hercules developed the first commercial smokeless powders suitable for loading rifle cartridges.
As it was, the .30-30 and .25-35 (the first two commercial smokeless cartridges in the US, introduced concurrently) were held up by over a year while Winchester tried to obtain suitable quantities of smokeless powder from Du Pont.
IIRC the original load for the .30-30 was nominally 30 grains of DuPont Sporting Rifle 1.
Sorry, that's incorrect.
Cordite is a very specific formulation of double-base smokeless powder used almost exclusively by the British and Commonwealth nations.
It was, at the time of its development in the late 1880s, a military secret.
Hercules developed the first commercial smokeless powders suitable for loading rifle cartridges.
As it was, the .30-30 and .25-35 (the first two commercial smokeless cartridges in the US, introduced concurrently) were held up by over a year while Winchester tried to obtain suitable quantities of smokeless powder from Du Pont.
IIRC the original load for the .30-30 was nominally 30 grains of DuPont Sporting Rifle 1.
According to ancient urban legend, the .32 Winchester Special was intended to be reloaded with black powder. Factory ammo was loaded with smokeless, same as the .30-30, but Winchester knew that a lot of folks would reload it with black powder, and so the twist of the barrel was made with this in mind.
I can't (and won't) say this is true, but it makes some sense considering the times. Smokeless powder was the new thing, and not commonly available for reloading. My Grandfather reloaded his 12ga with DuPont "bulk" powder, a "semi smokless" powder that resembles oatmeal flakes. It smokes more than "modern" smokless, but has less smoke and fouling than black powder. I still have a handful of his shells!
Again, urban legend, but my own experience bears it out, that the .32 Special bores are marginal for accuracy. Fine when new, but often going "bad" with little or no visible wear to the rifling. Unlike the .30-30, which often seems capable of decent hunting accuracy when so worn one wonders if there ever was rifling in the barrel at all, the .32 just seem to go sour when it feels like it. Some believe this is to to the twist of the rifling, which is supposed to foul less when shooting black powder. I know that other .32 caliber rounds do not have any reputation for doing this, so one has to wonder. In a rifle like the Winchester 94, which generally are not shot a lot, many years of good service can go by without any trouble, and I think that's what Winchester counted on.
My father hunted with a Win 94 in .32 Special for well over a decade, seldom shooting even a full box of cartridges a year, and only shooting factory ammo. Then one season, when checking his sighting, his rifle would not group. Couldn't even get it to point of aim at 50yds, for no apparent reason. Still shot 6" low, with the sights adjusted as much as they could be. And I have heard similar stories from other people.
Can't say it's true, and I won't say it's not, but there's been talk!
Black powder in any cartridge will perform as well as black powder can, if proper loading procedures for black powder are followed. It is totally safe, again, as long as the right loading process is used.
Firearms designed for smokeless powder (primarily semi autos) will not function normally when fired with black powder, but they will shoot. Black powder will gum up the mechanisms in short order, and usually does not provide the correct recoil pulse to operate the mechaisms (and never with gas operated systems), so semis become instant manually operated repeaters, until they get too fouled even for that.
Small bore cartridges will suffer the greatest loss of performance, as no matter what you do, black powder velocities will only be between a third and a half of what the normal smokless powder load delivers, with concurrent loss of energy and change of trajectory.
jacketed bullets will change their performance radically as well, because the expansion is designed around velocities that black powder just cannot produce.
The exception are those rounds which were originally loaded with black powder (the "old west" rounds, like .45-70, .44-40, .45 Colt, etc) which are today loaded with smokeless to the original black powder pressures and velocities. Load these with black powder and you lose very little, if anything. You just have to clean them a lot more, and more thoroughly.
I can't (and won't) say this is true, but it makes some sense considering the times. Smokeless powder was the new thing, and not commonly available for reloading. My Grandfather reloaded his 12ga with DuPont "bulk" powder, a "semi smokless" powder that resembles oatmeal flakes. It smokes more than "modern" smokless, but has less smoke and fouling than black powder. I still have a handful of his shells!
Again, urban legend, but my own experience bears it out, that the .32 Special bores are marginal for accuracy. Fine when new, but often going "bad" with little or no visible wear to the rifling. Unlike the .30-30, which often seems capable of decent hunting accuracy when so worn one wonders if there ever was rifling in the barrel at all, the .32 just seem to go sour when it feels like it. Some believe this is to to the twist of the rifling, which is supposed to foul less when shooting black powder. I know that other .32 caliber rounds do not have any reputation for doing this, so one has to wonder. In a rifle like the Winchester 94, which generally are not shot a lot, many years of good service can go by without any trouble, and I think that's what Winchester counted on.
My father hunted with a Win 94 in .32 Special for well over a decade, seldom shooting even a full box of cartridges a year, and only shooting factory ammo. Then one season, when checking his sighting, his rifle would not group. Couldn't even get it to point of aim at 50yds, for no apparent reason. Still shot 6" low, with the sights adjusted as much as they could be. And I have heard similar stories from other people.
Can't say it's true, and I won't say it's not, but there's been talk!
Black powder in any cartridge will perform as well as black powder can, if proper loading procedures for black powder are followed. It is totally safe, again, as long as the right loading process is used.
Firearms designed for smokeless powder (primarily semi autos) will not function normally when fired with black powder, but they will shoot. Black powder will gum up the mechanisms in short order, and usually does not provide the correct recoil pulse to operate the mechaisms (and never with gas operated systems), so semis become instant manually operated repeaters, until they get too fouled even for that.
Small bore cartridges will suffer the greatest loss of performance, as no matter what you do, black powder velocities will only be between a third and a half of what the normal smokless powder load delivers, with concurrent loss of energy and change of trajectory.
jacketed bullets will change their performance radically as well, because the expansion is designed around velocities that black powder just cannot produce.
The exception are those rounds which were originally loaded with black powder (the "old west" rounds, like .45-70, .44-40, .45 Colt, etc) which are today loaded with smokeless to the original black powder pressures and velocities. Load these with black powder and you lose very little, if anything. You just have to clean them a lot more, and more thoroughly.
Skans wrote:
In rifle cartridges there are some specific powders which can be used as a substitute. Most reloading manuals have these listed.
You can't use any of the slower burning powders because the pressures generated are higher and longer than the BP cartidge cases, and some of the older actions will handle. For example, something like IMR4350 will probably rupture the case head and probably damage the action.
In rifle cartridges there are some specific powders which can be used as a substitute. Most reloading manuals have these listed.
You can't use any of the slower burning powders because the pressures generated are higher and longer than the BP cartidge cases, and some of the older actions will handle. For example, something like IMR4350 will probably rupture the case head and probably damage the action.
Black Powder + 7.62x39 + AK-47 = doing okay for 15-16 rounds (if I remember right) until a chamber burr caused repeated extraction failures. Not as much smoke as you'd think, and there didn't seem to be any fouling beyond what would normally be present after the same amount of regular ammo. Cycled normally, not sure how accurate it was though.
Not mine, one of the guys on surplusrifleforums.com did it just to see what would happen...and now I have to find out if they repeated it since.
Not mine, one of the guys on surplusrifleforums.com did it just to see what would happen...and now I have to find out if they repeated it since.
Smokeless lubes do not keep the fouling moist. I tried standard lead bullets with standard lube in my 45 LC and the barrel clogged up very quickly.
Blackpowder lubes are mixes of stuff like Crisco and Beeswax.
Blackpowder was messy though there are lots of SASS guys who shoot it in revolvers.
From what I have heard, 45/70's, 45/90's, etc, blackpowder era rifle rounds, are actually more accurate with blackpowder.
Blackpowder lubes are mixes of stuff like Crisco and Beeswax.
Blackpowder was messy though there are lots of SASS guys who shoot it in revolvers.
From what I have heard, 45/70's, 45/90's, etc, blackpowder era rifle rounds, are actually more accurate with blackpowder.
The .45 Colt/Long Colt was originally a blackpowder round, and it was the terminal ballistics of that round which designers attempted to emulate with the .45 ACP. The ACP falls short of the full power 45 Colt (40 grains of black and a 250 grain lead slug) just a bit, but it is darn close.
It should also be noted that the 45 ACP has magical qualities, and even a nick will break your arm or leg, and a solid hit will blow you backwards and kill you before you hit the ground.
It should also be noted that the 45 ACP has magical qualities, and even a nick will break your arm or leg, and a solid hit will blow you backwards and kill you before you hit the ground.
Dr. Strangelove
New member
I loaded some 9x19 (9mm Luger) once with Pyrodex P. Filled the case to the top and seated the bullet to compress it.
I fired them out of a Ruger P89. They were surprisingly accurate, but wouldn't cycle the action. The pistol was ridiculously filthy.
I fired them out of a Ruger P89. They were surprisingly accurate, but wouldn't cycle the action. The pistol was ridiculously filthy.
hardworker
New member
That's just if you're shooting west. If you shoot east, and the bullet passes through, the bullet will strike the ground and the earth's rotation will slow down. Running the numbers will show that in fact, the BG was dead before you ever pulled the trigger.