Bigger bullets for 45 ACP revolvers?

[DG45]

Model 1917 Army 45 revolvers and their 1937 Brazilian contract counterparts all have a lot of excess cylinder length beyond what is needed to accomodate a 45 ACP round or a 45 Auto Rim Round.

There must be somewhere between a quarter of an inch and half an inch of empty space left over unused in the cylinder between the tip of a seated 255 grain semi-wadcutter in 45 Auto Rim caliber,and the front rim of the cylinder its seated in.

Has anybody tried using bullets bigger than 255 grain in all that space? I wonder if a bigger bullet, say 300 grains, could be used that would travel at about 650fps, or would that cause a dangerous rise in pressure?

 

[Wrangler5]

I believe it's the current issue of American Handgunner that has an article about bigger bullets in 45s, including some comments on bigger 45ACP loads. I think the conclusion was that it can be done, but there's a limit. (I only skimmed the article, since I don't shoot any 45.)

 

[BlueTrain]

You used to be able to buy 200-grain .38-Special loads and even 200-grain .38 S&W loads, too. They were slower than the usual 158 grain (for .38-Special) and 146 grain (for .38-Regular) loads. I don't see any reason why it couldn't be done, provided you find the right bullet. Don't know where you would find the load data, however.

A bigger problem, however, is the short case. Might not be enough room. And besides, it might not be as effective as the usual load in the first place.

Elmer Keith addressed the topic of shorter cylinders in his book Sixguns, although it was more in the context of shorter cartridges, if memory serves. There was a photo of a Colt Single Action Army revolver that had been converted to, I think, .22 rimfire and fitted with a shortened cylinder and it looked bizarre. But that's getting away from your general idea. Anyhow, 255-grain is already heavy for the round.

 

[MrBorland]

Are you wondering if the extra distance to the throat is hurting accuracy, or are interested in just loading a heavier bullet?

If the former, this is an oft-discussed topic, and the general consensus is that if the relatively long jump to the throat compromises accuracy, the effect is tiny, and not likely to be noticed by anyone. Throat dimension and how stably the bullet enters and leaves it has a much bigger effect on accuracy.

 

[Deaf Smith]

If using the 255 or greater slugs I'd use .45 Autorim cases.

A good 625 can take ALOT more pressure than an old WW2/WW1 gun so I'd reload accordingly!

Deaf

 

[DG45]

I don't know much about 625's. Do they have the excess cylinder space to do this?

I have wondered about how that long jump from the cylinder to the chamber affects bullet accuracy and appreciate the response above that touches on that.

Mainly, I was thinking of the old British service revolvers that fired the 450 Adams cartridge, and the later .455 cartridges that were used in those old military Webleys, most of which were later converted to .45 ACP.

Those calibers were not as "powerful" as 45 ACP's are in terms of velocity, but they fired a heavier bullet at the slower speed. I guess the idea was that a bigger bullet compensated for slower speed. Anyway, those guns were used from the time of the Zulu wars until WWI and they were considered good manstoppers at the time.

My question was just to see if anybody had tried this. I don't plan to try it until Remington or somebody sells the load commercially. I was just really wondering in a strictly academic way what kind of hitter a longer, heavier (say300 grain) soft lead semiwadcutter bullet would be if it was fired from a 45 ACP revolver that had enough excess cylinder space to accomodate it, like the model 1917's do, and what kind of powder load would be required to push a 300 grain soft lead SWC out the barrel at oh, let's say,about 625 fps? I was also wondering what kind of pressure a load like that would develop, and if it would be safe to fire it in an old revolver.
.

 

[rodfac]

I've had a Model 25 Smith in .45 ACP for 25 years or so; a pinned barrel model, that's superbly accurate with about any quality bullet I push through it. Using the ACP case, the standard 230 gr FMJ Sierra bullet cuts the same ragged 1-1/2" gps that softer 200 gr TWC bullets do. Using the Auto-Rim case the accuracy is the same. The fit and finish of the cylinder, forcing cone, and barrel match as perfectly as is probably possible. So, that's telling me that the long cylinder has no effect on accuracy, at least in my example.

Lyman's 452424 SWC of Keith design does as well and weighs something like 250 grains cast from wheel weights. It too will cut one ragged hole groups from a rest at 25 yds. That sharp shouldered SWC needs no enhancement, (read add'l weight) to make it deadly. I've not chronographed it so cannot speak to 'magnamizing' it but at standard velocities estimated in the 700-800 fps range, I could ask for no more. The gun was a target punching proposition, heavy with its six inch barrel and really not meant for hunting or defensive carry...though it would probably get the job done in either event given good shot placement. For hunting, one of the magnums would be a better choice, and a shorter barrel would make a defensive gun a better carry option.

As to a heavier bullet...I'd ask why? The Brits got away from it nearly a century ago and our own military relied on the lower weight but still formidable stopping power of that round nosed 230 gr FMJ for 75+ years. Heavier would make sense in a magnum of suitable strength, but for me, I go with the standard weights...and am more than satisfied with performance.

As to pressures, you can always load to accommodate the gun's design criteria, but getting the pressure data from one of the powder manuf.'s might be difficults...just not enough demand...as a point of note...Keith abandoned the .45 LC in favor of the .44 Special after blowing up a SAA with 300 gr .45-90 bullets as I recall. He may have been using them oversize and cast hard as well...

HTH's Rod

 

[Deaf Smith]

DG45,

.45 Autorim cases are same length as .45 ACP. With 255gr slugs just seat them out further.

Most reloading manuals do have .45 Auto rime loading data.

250 gr.
http://www.loaddata.com/members/sea...aliberid=26&header=.45 Caliber Reloading Data

WOW... 305 grain slugs!
http://www.loaddata.com/members/sea...aliberid=26&header=.45 Caliber Reloading Data

Just Google '.45 acp heavy bullet reloading data'.

Deaf

 

[savit260]

A good 625 can take ALOT more pressure than an old WW2/WW1 gun so I'd reload accordingly!

I'd be careful. There's still not a whole lot of metal between the charge hole and the notch in the cylinder.

I'm sure the metallurgy is better today, but it's still very thin in that spot.

 

[DG45]

WOW! Now thats what I'm talking about!

305 grain Lyman #457916; Alliant 2400 Powder; Over 600 fps.

I wonder what the pressure is and whether a 1917 Model can handle it?

 

[Webleymkv]

I see no particular reason why it couldn't be done as bullets in the proper diameter are available in weights all the way up to nearly 400grn for use in cartridges like .45 Long Colt, .454 Casull, and .460 XVR. Because both .45 ACP and .45 Auto-Rim are relatively short cases, I'd think the bullets would have to be seated pretty far out (this might rule out some cast bullets as the grease grooves would necessitate a certain seating depth) and velocity would probably be very, very low (600fps or less). Honestly, the biggest potential problem that I see is accuracy. I don't know what the twist rate of a typical .45 ACP barrel is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't stabilize a bullet much heavier than 260grn very well.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I'd be careful. There's still not a whole lot of metal between the charge hole and the notch in the cylinder.

savit260,

Jimmy Clark of Clark's Custom guns rechambers 625s to .460 Roland. He emailed me and said .45 Supers were quite safe in my 625 3 incher. And yep, I shot a bunch of them out of it and the cases just dropped right out of the chambers.

DG45,

I'd check with that web site with the 305 grain slugs and see if you can email them and ask about using a 1917 .45 ACP. If they had the same pressure limit in their handloads as standard .45 ACP 230gr FMJ, then I don't see why not it would not work. The Brits used in their 1917s in .455 Webley 265gr slugs at 600-700 fps.

And that is why I'd use .45 Auto rim cases. Seat the 300s out far and crimp them in.

Deaf

 

[rodfac]

Good solid, knowledgeable response, Deaf...you've been where I haven't. Would like to get a look at that rebored 625 in .460 Roland. Any pics?

I've loaded Auto-Rim for a long time, using the old NRA suggestion that ACP data is applicable, but it does seem to have more web thickness...or maybe I'm just imagining it.

Rod

 

[Wyosmith]

I have had outstanding results with an LBT 265 grain wide nose gas check bullet in my S&W "mountain gun". I use Star Line 45Auto-Rim brass.

 

[DG45]

Webleymkv, my guess is that it wouldn't be very accurate. But, at bedside table to bedroom door range, I'm definitely going to hit what I shoot at - somewhere -but can't be sure where because it'd probably happen at about 3AM and would be pitch dark).

The load I want in that case is the heaviest hunk of lead my Brazilian contract will fire at a muzzle velocity of 600fps or better. I don't care if that heavy bullet is unstable and will tumble when it hits; I might even prefer that. I just want something that'll hit like a truck, penetrate like a champ, and shatter any bone it hits.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Rod,

First the .45 Autorim cases, the modern ones that are not ballon head, are thicker. Just seat the slug out a bit farther and all is well.

Now about the 625 in .460.

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/revserv.htm

And you can email Clark about what all is done.

Deaf

 

[Webleymkv]

The load I want in that case is the heaviest hunk of lead my Brazilian contract will fire at a muzzle velocity of 600fps or better. I don't care if that heavy bullet is unstable and will tumble when it hits; I might even prefer that. I just want something that'll hit like a truck, penetrate like a champ, and shatter any bone it hits.

While such a loading would certainly do what you describe, a good 255grn SWC would do it too with a lot less trouble to get there. Also, for a bedside gun, a 230grn JHP is pretty well regarded.