Best specs on range ammo? American Eagle, Lawman? Ruag? Other?

[wild cat mccane]

Hey there,

So not a "I like this" or "never had an issue" thread. Almost everything factory works and is accurate. Totally agree, no dispute.

I mean to say, technically speaking from specs or as a reloader, which factory FMJ has the best specs? For example, I didn't know this, but have read that Blazer and PMC have thinner brass cases. I've read Federal tends to have the most consistent velocity. Since Blazer is Speer, I'm wondering if my love for Lawman might not be proven in specs vs personal experiences so far. I've read Ruag is well respected for consistency, but no one mentions it. I've read Remington FMJ is some of the least consistent of all factory loads.

Example, years ago Blazer wasn't recommended by Magnaport because the copper is so thin on the bullet the port could shave off the copper: http://www.coldboretact.com/blazer-brass-ammo-prohibited.html

So given all is great and works, is one worth mentioning as just "better" per specs than others?

 

[TunnelRat]

I think you’d have to compile a list of all the specifications you were interested in. Besides finding all of the information, my guess is one of the biggest issues you’ll face is variances in measurement procedures.

The other day I was at a lgs and they had a case of Norma 115 gr 9mm FMJ ammunition with an advertised velocity that caught my eye. Next to the advertised velocity was an asterisk. On the back of the box it was explained that the velocity was measured from a 6” barrel. Do all manufacturers when they measure velocity use the same barrel length? Is this verified by a third party or do we just take them at their word?

I’ve seen ammunition tests that can show fairly large shot to shot velocity variation for certain manufacturers. So then how many shots do you use to get your measurement? Do you take a mean or a median? Do you determine and throw out any outliers?

You could get really into the weeds on this, especially if you want something more than anecdotal. Anecdotally I’ve also had good performance with Speer Lawman in terms of reliability and accuracy and importantly to me matching some of the duty loads I prefer to carry in terms of recoil (the same is true of American Eagle). I’ve also shot Ruag out to 100 yd from a Glock 19 and seen better accuracy than some other brands, but I’ve never measured it and looked at percent differences or done a comparison of means.


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[wild cat mccane]

Yep. Exactly like you are saying. Trouble abounds and I'm hoping there this information is out there...

Best brass (for what? I agree), most consistent loading (could be opinion from someone pulling bullets), most consistent bullet, best primer, etc.

Even if someone were to say, Federal American Eagle has the best brass at .0001 thickness greater, that's good enough.

 

[TunnelRat]

One person might, but part of my point is for a real analysis you’d want more than one person doing this or that one person would have had to have measured many, many samples from each manufacturer (and that one person hopefully did a good job measuring as all the faith is on him/her). Then you get into the question of does 0.0001” thicker brass translate into any meaningful results in the actual shooting, or does it only matter for number of times it can be reloaded. What is the final result you’re measuring is a big question.

Edit: this actually would be an interesting thing to coordinate and document if it doesn’t already exist. There are enough reloaders and people with chronos out there. You’d have to agree on how to measure and document and people would likely need to record the tools used to measure in case you saw conflicting information, but the people are out there.


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[wild cat mccane]

Exactly.

Totally agree. I do stats for a living, so agree the research is already questionable. Certainly because almost all factory FMJ is just fine.

But if someone had specs they liked about one brand for one aspect (brass, bullet, primer, powder, etc), that might be a start to saying, yeah, they are all good, but XXXX is XXXX for some reason...


Might be stupid from the get go as velocity and bullet weight drives a lot of the FMJ range use purpose.

 

[TunnelRat]

Yeah I get you have to start somewhere. My degree is in interdisciplinary mathematics: statistics and a large part of my job is evaluating performance across different competitors.

If you find the information it’s worth cataloging it and storing it in a means accessible to others as a reference.


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[wild cat mccane]

Thanks! Hopefully someone has some insight, even it it's just different parts of the round.

 

[HighValleyRanch]

If it's just range ammo, what does it matter?

 

[wild cat mccane]

After learning the Blazer rounds could shed their jacket through a ported barrel, I thought why not ask what is the best constructed round. Never would of equated CCI/Speer with low quality, but they appear to have the crappiest jacketing on their Blazer line. And they make my favorite round, Lawman.

Meh.

 

[TunnelRat]

It sounds like you have a fair amount of experience personally shooting Speer Lawman in the past and it has worked well for you. That Blazer Brass has a thin jacket that can be stripped if using a ported barrel seems only somewhat related. It’s both not the same ammunition line (even if the same manufacturer) and if you yourself aren’t using a ported barrel it may not be of any consequence. Were I in your shoes I’m not sure I’d let that report negate or make me lose confidence in that firsthand experience. Your call.


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[Aguila Blanca]

One of the long-time members on the M1911.org forum is a numbers and data wonk who also happens to be a bullseye shooter and reloader. Years ago he put together a chart of his measurements of .45 ACP brass wall thicknesses. Unfortunately, all his (generally very excellent) charts and diagrams were on Photobucket, and when Photobucket started playing games with is a few years ago he gave up -- with the result that most of that information seems to be lost.

I did find this snippet in a recent discussion on M1911.org:

For comparison, the case with the greatest minimum thickness I've ever measured was from Armscor with an AP10 headstamp at 0.0103" (0.26mm) and the thinnest was 0.0071" (0.18mm) on an old R-P Targetmaster case. When measuring for case wall thickness, I probe for the thinnest (and thickest) spot on the assumption the sized case can grip the bullet no better than its thinnest section will allow (sort of the weakest link theory, I guess).

FWIW, is other posts he has complained about how thin R-P brass is. Apparently he had a bunch of it and to make it work for his lead SWC bullets he had to use a bullet sizing die that was .001" oversize and an expander plug that was .0015" undersized.

 

[FITASC]

Personally, I like Speer Lawman in 9mm with 124s. Work great in all of my pistols. Since Vista basically owns most, if not all, of US-made handgun ammo now of the type we are talking about, I doubt there is too much difference as that would make production more expensive than it needs to be.

 

[TXAZ]

I realize this is the handgun forum, but the Physics says when you pull the trigger you're applying an impulse function to a system (like striking a bell) of many variables, where each change in a variable changes the ring of the outcome, regardless of it being a rifle or pistol. So it's a lot more than just the ammo. Barrel length, mass of the weapon and bullet, twist, where the bullet leaves the barrel (at the top / left/ bottom / right) of the barrel as it oscillates from the impulse.

Pulling the trigger is akin to ringing a long slender bell, and how hard you hit that bell (the powder load) with how heavy a hammer (the bullet) determines how fast the bullet gets down the barrel that comes out of the bell / barrel as it moves up and down when fired. That's why barrel tuners can help provide a consistency when they are dialed in, and really bad results when not.

I ran test with ~ 20 different factory ammos for a new .308. Shot from a locked down bench rest, with each cold bore shot excluded from the sample.

A couple shot (in my rifle, at my altitude, temp, humidity, etc) right at 1/2 MOA (Berger 185's and Federal 178's), while most of the rest shot from 3/4 MOA-1.5 MOA, a couple around 2-3 MOA, while one brand consistently shot 5 MOA or worse.
Again, locked down, 25X scope at 100 yards, cold bore excluded.
A buddy with a different .308 and barrel has significantly worse performance with my 185 Bergers, but could shoot sub MOA with 150's that wre about 2 MOA in mine.
Good luck!

 

[wild cat mccane]

Thanks all for your thoughts. Exactly on what you posted from the 1911 forum. That would be awesome for 9mm.

I get the point, as I opened with that all ammo is accurate and good.

If we can see someone testing one vs an other, just for giggles and for the fact all FMJ basically costs the same, I think it would be interesting information. Would it change anything? na. But it would be interesting to know if we could figure out which brand and line have the least variation and highest quality. I think it would be super interesting.

Defiantly not a thread or process for someone who agrees with me that all FMJ is functional.

 

[wild cat mccane]

I don't think Federal/Speer/Estate/CCI are created with the same parts.

From molon or whatever his screen name, I think he showed well that the Speer Gold Dot 223 and the Federal Fusion bullet are the exact same bullet. Otherwise, no direct part replacement between brands. Even Blazer was using their own weirdo small primer for a long time, if I recall. So certainly cases between federal and speer aren't the same.

I would even love to hear about Fiocchi, S&B, Ruag, Geco, Norma, PMC (which I've read is thin brass), etc too.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Thanks all for your thoughts. Exactly on what you posted from the 1911 forum. That would be awesome for 9mm.

If you want to do some digging, the M1911.org forum has a companion site that's an on-line magazine, in which most issues include gun tests (most of which are, unsurprisingly, 1911s -- but not all). Each test includes accuracy results shot with at least four, and sometimes six or more, different brands and types of ammunition. The results are tabulated, so you can skip reading the articles and just grab the accuracy results. Collect the results from a number of reviews and you may find some trends.

Of course, you may find that different pistols like different ammo (as is considered to be normal for .22s).

https://ezine.m1911.org/

They've been doing tests for fifteen years, so there's a modest amount of data there to be mined if you choose to pursue it.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

The only pistol brass I’ve ever had the cases split on me were Remington. This is with 9mm, .38sp, .357mag, and .41mag. This has held true in all the calibers I shoot. I can’t attest as to how many reloads it took since I don’t keep track, but I know the one 9mm was only on its second loading, and it happened while flaring during the powder drop. With S&B and Aguila 9mm brass I use my Lyman primer pocket crimp remover on the primer pockets since they are usually a little tight.

 

[wild cat mccane]

Example of one, but good to hear. It does align with a lot of online posts that Remington brass isn't that great.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

You didn't ask about jacket thickness, but that's part of cartridge constriction, too. It happens that, just yesterday, the data wonk guy on the M1911.org forum posted another of his data dumps -- this one on bullets and jacket/plating thickness.

https://forum.m1911.org/showthread....copper-jacketed-bullets&p=1007425#post1007425

[Edit]I just changed the link to include the entire post. In addition to the graphic with jacket thickness data, he also has some interesting data on the Brinnel hardness of the projectiles.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

Another thing on brass, at least in 9mm. I wet clean my brass in a tumbler with dawn and citric acid, and the Xtreme brand turns copper, must be an alloy without much zinc in it since it leaches out so easily.