Best Shell for Home Defence?

RobertRogers

New member
If (or should I say "When") TSHTF, what might be the best all around shell for home defense?

Got the rifles, the handguns. But nothing (IMHO) beats a good shotgun when it gets close.
 

Manedwolf

Moderator
If in a house without another house close, can't go wrong with #00 buck, lead, unplated.

If in an apartment, you need to worry about penetration since you don't know what's beyond other walls, and it will go through them, so you're more into #4 and up, IMO.
 

Doyle

New member
I disagree with the 00. Too few pellets - even if you use a 3" mag. In any kind of home defense distance, #4 will give you much more effectiveness against humans. Remember - humans are thin skinned. Even a .22 inch #4 buckshot will penetrate well into the vitals - even though the guy who developted the previously noted website thinks they won't.
 

Deaf Smith

New member
HE. Best shell there is. Maybe HEAT or even a shaped charge...

Oh, you mean shotgun shell. Most any good load will do inside 10 yards will do for HD. Maybe some of that 'tactical' buckshot that has 8 peddlets and lower velocity. Or even good field loads like number 4.

I'd worry about slugs and ultra light skeet loads, but just about anything in between will do. Only question is, how good are you at using your scattergun?

Can you load it in the dark, eyes closed?
Do you know the pattern abilty of the gun so you can shoot just enough to one side to miss a hostage and still get the BG with a partial blast?
Can you clear a jam quickly?
Can you acculate your pump (if you have a pump) and not short stroke?
Can you defend your shotgun if someone tries to take it away?

Things like that are far more important than just what shot size you have in your gun.
 
If (or should I say "When") TSHTF, what might be the best all around shell for home defense?

There is no correct answer without knowing the parameters involved. Different shells will fit different jobs best, but the trip is to find the correct match for YOUR situation.

Are you worried about over or under penetration?
Are you worried about recoil or flash?
Is the gun semi auto, lever, pump, single or double?
If semi, lever, or pump, what are your magazine capacity needs?
Will your gun handle magnum shells?
Will your gun handle mini shells?
Full power or reduced recoil?
Choked or unchoked?
What is the construction of your home?
How close are the neighbors?
What can you afford?
Will this be your only HD option?
 

Manedwolf

Moderator
I wouldn't use slugs.

Go to a place where there was Civil War fighting, where a musket's minie ball went through a house, past multiple walls, and lodged in a thick oak beam after badly splintering it. That's essentially what a slug is.
 

ebutler462

New member
I am a retired detective that has seen too many autopsies on bodies that were either shot in houses, street corners, and any other place they shouldn't have been when the shot let loose. I won't recommend any load. Just some facts based on thirty plus years on the street. I am not a M. Ayoob or an expert. Just a long time cop that has been there, done that.

There is not much chance of a person surviving a shotgun blast at 10 yards (30 feet) even if the person has heavy clothing on. No matter what shot size you use, at 30 feet, a body hit in the vitals, head, chest, upper abdominal area, that guy is dead or totally incapacitated, usually to die shortly from numerous shot, wadding, clothing fiber, etc. The smaller the shot, the less the chances for the medicos being able to save the bad boy. Even the promo loads that you would normally use for dove and quail are very deadly at 30 feet. If you hit the bad guy in the T-zone, your and his worries are over. Almost no one survives.

If you hit the bad guy in a non-vital with a 12 gauge slug, you may not stop him. Hit him in the T-zone, he is dead and so is everyone behind him for a long way. The only short range shooting that I have observed that didn't kill was an officer that was shot from about 10 feet in the abdomen with 00 buckshot. The shot blew a hole through him but didn't hit a vital organ, took out one kidney. He spent quite a while in the hospital but went back to work after a year or so.

The problem with small shot is that even if it doesnt immediately kill, there are hundreds of penetration wounds where the shot has taken contimanants, such as clothing fibers. If he is hit in the vitals, he will probably be dead from bleed out before the doctors can get to him. If he is hit in the shoulder, or legs, or in the abdominal area, even if it is with a slug or buckshot, he has a good chance of surviving. You have certainly stopped him which was your goal all along.

What do I personally have in my home for protection? A pump with #7 1/2 bird shot. My house is two rooms wide at its widest viewing angle. Less than 30 feet as I must stand somewhere to shoot. My gun has a 24" barrel. I will probably be in the center of the room or at the doorway. Thus it is only 15 feet or less to the other wall. There is no way that a bad guy can survive a shot at that distance unless I wing him. Even a 50 cal won't stop him if he is winged. If I completely miss him, the small shot will expend some of its energy penetrating the drywall on both sides and will still be somewhat dangerous to family or neighbors on the other side of the wall. But, not as dangerous a buckshot or slugs.

Out at the farm, I keep a 30-30 Marlin. I don't use a shotgun for longer range protection. If he comes in the house, my shotgun should take care of the situation. If he is trying to steal my equipment or do my property harm, I will use the 30-30 to terminate his activities.

To each his own theory as to what is best for his own circumstances.
 

Deaf Smith

New member
ebutler462,

That mirrors my wifes observations from ER! Even with birdshot the 12 is a mighty weapon inside a house. Just way to much internal bleeding the ER staff could not stop. Unlike .22s or .32s or such, who walked in many a time, those hit solidly with shotguns were carried in.
 

webbee

New member
Another vote for #1 buck inside. It doesn't seem to penetrate as many drywall sections as does 00 buck according to testing at The Box Of Truth. I also like the gel tests/recommendations from Firearms Tactical that nate45 mentioned.
It's also hard to argue with approximately 16 .30 cal pellets delivered at once (with shot-cup) inside house distances.
Now if your talking outside...either 0, 00, 000, or slugs would be my first choice. Slugs are lethal out to about 125 yards.
I agree with Old_Painless...""Birdshot is for birds." YMMV
 

ebutler462

New member
Forget about Box of Truth and all of the so-called field tests. Ask the people with experience picking up the pieces of crap after the shooting. If 30+ years of doing so doesn't count for real life experiences, to each his own.

Your family and neighbors are in a tremendous amount of danger from YOU if you want to be a buckshot or slug fan.

Be careful out there. Someone is protecting their home with loads that do tremendous collateral damage.
 

BigJimP

New member
A good Duck or Pheasant load with 6's or 4's is good, in my view. In a pinch, I'd go with 7 1/2's if I had to.
 

StoneyFF

New member
ebutler462 is 'dead' on!

ebutler462,

Your observations are very accurate and compelling. Most importantly, they are backed up by multiple data points (albeit anecdotal, but in this case, anecdotal is actually more valid than 'scientific' data on gels rather than anecdotal evidence on bodies... of course, I can think of a few folks I could nominate if we ever decide to do 'scientific' experiments on human beings <grin>...).

And anyone who thinks that a lot of small shot isn't deadly hasn't heard of (or seen) the results of a claymore mine detonation...

The only point of note I'd add about a shotgun, either inside or out, is that it's not a 'scatter gun' as folks are wont to call it (unless it's an illegal sawed off, and then it still doesn't scatter as much as folks would think)... that is, unless it's properly aimed, it won't matter much what you have in it, it ain't gonna stop the bad guy unless you HIT HIM/HER... and you won't do that unless you've practiced with your weapon, and in close quarters.

When I was in the Marines on Okinawa before going to Nam (a LONG time ago), we got to work out on a Ranger (Green Beannie) training course there, and we were taught how to shoot from the hip and hit the target... we were taught with ping pong balls and BB guns (no kidding)... And you'd be surprised (well, you probably wouldn't, but most reading would) how difficult it is to learn to shoot accurately from the hip, even at close range. It's not 'natural' like people would like to think. It's a skill and not one easily acquired (with inanimate objects, it's a lot harder when they're shooting back and your weapon won't shoot full auto <grin>)...

Anyway, I know I'm preaching to the choir, but it helps to let the congregation hear it as well <smile>...

Stoney
{the multiple data point point above, by the way, is what's wrong with your Stoeger 2000 observation, there you were working from a single data point (the one that you had and didn't find acceptable)... If I followed that methodology, I'd be very limited in what cars/trucks I could buy, since I've had a bad one from most every manufacturer, including some that people consider the ultimate in quality... <smile>...}

 

Deaf Smith

New member
Guys, a simple way to test this.. The Mythbusters way.

Just get a pig (dead but thawed) and have a field day shooting it with say, Number 6 field load, Number 4 High base, and 00 Buck. Just see how far each of them go, and how bad the dammage, at 10 yards with a, say modifed choak 12. And no cheating (like using Federal True-flite 00 low recoil buckshot.)

That will tell the tale.
 

tulsamal

New member
Forget about Box of Truth and all of the so-called field tests. Ask the people with experience picking up the pieces of crap after the shooting. If 30+ years of doing so doesn't count for real life experiences, to each his own.

I can accept that argument when it comes to the Box of Truth since that is just a guy having some fun. But it's much more difficult to discredit what the IWBA says. And it makes sense to me that birdshot could very well create a "deadly wound" in the long term but not necessarily one that gives you the instant stop you actually want.

From the link posted above:

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Personally, I live on 90 acres in a rural area. I don't HAVE any neighbors. And it is more likely that any attackers out here will be in one or more pickups. Therefore something that has the ability to get through a car door is worthwhile. I keep two shotguns around for home defense. A Baikal Bounty Hunter II side by side. Right barrel loaded with high brass #4 pheasant load. Left barrel with 0 Buck. The FN SLP has a #4 high brass lead turkey load for number one and then all 00 Buck.

Summary
With the right load, a shotgun can be very effective in quickly stopping the deadly violence being perpetrated by a criminal who's invaded your home.

If you're worried that a missed shot might penetrate through a wall and harm others, load your shotgun so that the first one or two cartridges to be fired is number 6 or smaller birdshot, followed by standard lead #1 buckshot (12 gauge) or #3 buckshot (20 gauge). If your first shot misses, the birdshot is less likely to endanger innocent lives outside the room. If your first shot fails to stop the attacker, you can immediately follow-up with more potent ammunition.

With birdshot you are wise to keep in mind that your gunfire has the potential to NOT PRODUCE an effective wound. Do not expect birdshot to have any decisive effect.

Number 1 buckshot has the potential to produce more effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck, without the accompanying risk of over-penetration. The IWBA believes, with very good reason, that number 1 buckshot is the shotshell load of choice for quickly stopping deadly criminal violence.

Gregg
 

Deaf Smith

New member
My wife says all the ones showing up at the ER that had taken a full blast of bird shot died. She said it didn't look that bad when they cleared the blood up, but upon cracking open the chest most of the internal organs were bleeding. Couldn't stop all of it so the patients died.

Keep in mind the BOT is shooting sheetrock and water jugs. ER is not water jugs or sheetrock.

Tell you what, how about getting phone books, soak them, and then see what bird shot does at close range. That just about everyone here should be able to do. Try several shot sizes and high base/low base.
 

Socrates

Moderator
Well, being a shotgun newbie, the most important thing is to be able to practice with the shotgun. Now, what shotgun would be allowed at my local range? We don't have skeet...

Dr. S
 
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