Best SD bullet type for .45

[Tanzer]

The whole idea behind carrying a .45 is the shear knockdown strength, or so I've heard. So instead of hollow points, shouldn't I be carrying a self defense bullet that concentrates on bullet weight for punch? I'm aware of bullistic applications, wound channel, and the danger to bystanders from a bullet that travels through the target. It seems to me that since the hydra-shocks developed for 9mm and the like are purported to maximize the transfer of energy into the target, shouldn't a .45 cal, which opens a large channel by design, concentrate less on expansion and more on the kinetic energy delivered by a heavy slug?
I know it's a matter of opinion, but I'm leaning towards a heavy soft point in the 300-400gr range.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Axion]

shouldn't a .45 cal, which opens a large channel by design, concentrate less on expansion and more on the kinetic energy delivered by a heavy slug?

I see two things wrong here. First of all Any 9mm JHP is going to open up to much greater then .45 of an inch. The Corbon DPX for example opens up to ~.6in. So just because a .45 starts off bigger then a 9mm does not negate the usefulness expansion.

Secondly, all things being equal lighter bullets usually carry more energy. Take for example three .45 ACP loadings from Double Tap
165g JHP - 643 ft*lbs
185g JHP - 616 ft*lbs
230g JHP - 521 ft*lbs

 

[Tanzer]

Ft. Lbs

My understanding is that energy (ft lbs, Newtons) is measured at the muzzle. I haven't studied physics for 25 years, but as I see it, energy measured at the muzzle does not always translate to transfered energy at the point of impact. It can't be created or destroyed, but transfer is the key. It's a matter of mass, velocity and the matrix of the impact zone. I guess I'm asking for opinions on the maximum balance. Considering the wound channel left by a .45, is desire for expasion overcome by the mass of the slug? A 30-06 would pass through a body like a .22 hits a paper target. Plenty of energy, but transfer would be lessened, since it is designed for say, a deer.
It's a hard call. Would you rather have a cinder block dropped on your head from 10 feet high, or a brick dropped from 25?

 

[5whiskey]

Energy is often measured at the muzzle, yes. I also see that even though the lighter bullet starts out with more energy, the heavier bullet retains more momentum and energy as the range increases. The only thing with this is that within effective range distance of a handgun the bullet will not have traveled far enough to see the heavy bullet momentum surpass the lighter bullets' initial energy. As far as transfer, well... as long the bullet stays inside the body without passing through it transfers all energy. This is an interesting article though because bullet type/expansion should make a bit of differance. Also, I think a heavier bullet has more potential than a lighter bullet if you reload, but alas that is speculation. Someone either verify or shoot down my theory please. I won't be getting into handloading for another couple of months to test it myself.

To put the final say I will offer in... I don't want to get shot by either.

 

[Gazpacho]

Axion, in all probability, the velocities of those three Double Tap cartridges isn't equal. Unfortunately, that would make your comparison deceiving.

 

[Love&Hate12]

230 gr.

It tends to have the most momentum and at standard loadings, less recoil and the noise isn't *as* punishing as from supersonic velocities.

 

[slow944]

Isn't this why the 230gr was developed for the 45 to give the maximun amount of energy on target? I owned several 1911 and 45 clones and the 230gr ammo always seems to work best for my uses. I carry a Taurus MILPRO PT145 and the 230gr is the most accurate.

 

[BikerRN]

In 45 ACP I carry either 185 Grain +P JHP or 230 Grain +P JHP.

I want the mass, but also the speed to transfer the most amount of energy possible. I also want the bullet to stay in whatever/whomever I had to shoot. Real life has shown that HP's tend to stay in the body of the shootee, thereby "dumping" all of it's energy in the intended target.

Why would I want a bullet that keeps travelling after going through the shootee? If it keeps traveling that means it still has energy. Therefore, whatever energy it has left is wasted.

I hate waste.

Biker

 

[Lurper]

A hollow point that expands reliably will be the most effective. Lighter bullets (180 - 200 gr) will have more velocity than 230gr and will expand to a larger diameter than hardball causing a greater temporary and permanent wound cavity, more damage and greater chance of incapacitation. Remember, hardball was developed for the military where you cannot use hollow point, soft points etc..

 

[Jason_G]

My understanding is that energy (ft lbs, Newtons) is measured at the muzzle.

I know I've seen some that measure energy past the muzzle. Most of these include the distance from the muzzle and the length of the barrel.

Jason

 

[jrothWA]

Recommend that you...

consider using the Hornady .45AP 230gr FMJ-FP.
these are flat nosed fmj round and seem to duplicate standard ball ammo.
Also, consider the XTP hp rounds that are sold by Hornady.

 

[mattgreennra]

I would use 230 hollow points if you are using the traditional HP. I prefer cor-bon stuff.

My carry ammo is Cor-bon DPX 185 grain (the higher of the two available) .45 acp ammo. It uses Barnes Copper bullets that retain almost 100% of weight and go through most everything, but not more than 12". They are the best self-defense bullet that isn't glaser IMO.

These also feed perfect in my springfield 1911 and my springfield XD

 

[Mark54g]

First off,

The .45 has as much "knockdown strength" as the punch of a 7yr old girl (maybe less).
Bullets will not KNOCK YOU DOWN. They will punch holes into you, make you bleed, move aside and destroy tissue.

Some .45s do not take kindly to many types of hollow points. However, using a 200-230gr hollow point from a 4" or better barrel is going to be a good start. Use FMJ if you cannot get JHP to feed and fire reliably.

Focus on 2 things first, and anything else afterward:
Does it function in my gun ALL the time?
Do I shoot it accurately?

If you cannot answer yes, then its a bad load for your gun. You either change the load or change the gun. That part is up to you.

You can play with numbers about how many newtons and how many foot pounds, but when it comes down to it, the human element is just too great a variance to keep up with the science of it. Some people will go down when hit, some will not. There are too many cases of people walking to the hospital after being shot with almost any gun you can imagine. Handguns are a compromise. If you believe them to be a death ray you will be putting yourself into danger. Lethality doesn't even matter. If you shoot someone with a hit that ultimately kills them, but they harm or kill you before they die...a day later, then what good is it?

 

[Doggieman]

yup

"knockdown power" is a myth, unless you're talking about a .50 BMG or a .458 WM or the like.

 

[BillCA]

Mark54g has it just about right.

1. Reliability - it must feed/function in your gun flawlessly. Combat is no time for a gun to get finiky about ammo.
2. Accuracy - You have to be able to hit your target and that means a round that hits point of aim.
3. Penetration - The bullet must be able to penetrate deep enough to reach the vital organs and/or the far side of the body. This means 12" to 18" of penetration.
4. Recoil - should be controllable and allow rapid shooting

When it comes to penetration, consider 12" (in ballistic gelatin) a minimum depth. One that penetrates 11.8 is probably just as good as 12" but one that penetrates 14" is better.

Forget terms like temporary stretch cavity, hydrostatic shock, knockdown power, and energy dump . Shot placement and penetration are the key to stopping an attacker.

Penetration may be and often is at an angle. Mr. Murphy says it will be the angle least condusive to hitting vital organs. Additionally, your round may have to traverse obliquely through a forearm or upper arm before hitting the chest. This is the reason for up to 18" of penetration.

Expanding bullets increase the wound area as well as cut tissue with their sharp edges (where FMJ pushes tissues aside and/or tears them). A larger wound channel increases the odds of cutting major nerves, organs or blood vessels. Increased bleeding can lower blood pressure resulting in unconsiousness.

The two most important factors are:
1. Shot placement (to vital structures)
2. Penetration (to reach these structures)

Lightweight bullets tend to lose momentum quickly once they strike a resistive target. Add the opening of the JHP and they can stop in as little as 8-10". Heavier bullets tend to penetrate deeper as a general rule. Heavier bullets are also more likely to break a substantial bone.

In self-defense, the primary target area is a vertical zone about as wide as the subject's neck, from the head to the pelvis. In this vertical zone are the spine (CNS), majory blood vessels and organs. Ideally the shots hit in this zone along the sternum (breast bone).

For what it's worth, my carry guns in .45 ACP use either Federal Hydrashok 230gr JHP or Speer Gold-Dot 230g ammo. Expansion failure should mean deeper penetration with a .45" hole. If I'm on target, there's a good chance it'll be a short fight.

 

[Axion]

Axion, in all probability, the velocities of those three Double Tap cartridges isn't equal. Unfortunately, that would make your comparison deceiving.

It's note deceiving at all, it is the way it is. The pressure forces from the expanding gas create a force on the bullet. If you have two .45 acp loads both loaded up to the same pressures but with different weight bullets the force will be equal on both bullets and therefore by newtons second law the lighter bullet will go faster. Then since energy (e=.5*m*v^2) is more Dependant on velocity then mass the lighter bullet will carry more energy.

Now of course things aren't that simple because if you put the same amount of the same powder in both cartrides the heavier bullet would, because it gets out of the way slower, lead to higher pressures...

But still the point is, all things being equal heavier loads do not seem to carry more energy which was my initial point.

 

[cheygriz]

You have the kinetic energy confused with momentum.

The heavier bullet at low velocity has far LESS energy than a light, fast bullet.

Kinetic enrgy is figured by E-MV squared. In other words, if the bullet weight is kept constant, and velocity is doubled, energy will increase four times. If the velocity is kept the same and bullet weight is doubled, energy will only double. Energy increases by the square of the velocity.

Increased bullet weight only increases momentum (E-mv) and momentum is a virtually meaningless measurement in ballistics.

But the important thing to remember about handguns is that "no handgun has stopping power."

 

[mattgreennra]

I'd be more worried about 'killing faster power' if you won't want to say "stopping power." In a real life self defense situation I bet that you will not be able to shoot nearly as well as you normally can. I figure that it's much better to put a much more powerful round into the target in case you don't hit a "sweet spot."