Best defensive .308 or 7.62x51 round (Hornady TAP?)

[LoneStarWings]

Okay, I realize in most situations defense and a full pwered rifle aren't exactly peas and carrots.

But let's say you have a lot of property to defend at long range, but also want good terminal close-range performance. What is the best commercial .308 or 7.62 round for these applications with a do-it-all weapon (in my case, a springfield M1A, 18" barrel, 1 in 11" twist)

I've been reading this:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

....Hornady TAP 155gr seems to be the consensus with the best balance of expansion and penetration.

Are there any pros/cons to this round that aren't apparant, such as accuracy? Any idea how it compares to the Federal Vital-Shok 150gr Nosler Ballisic tip? Also, would you want to consider barrier/armor penetration for this application?

I'm looking to grab a few hundred rounds to fill my mags with as a "hope I never use it" kind of insurance, and am just hoping to make the most out of the investment. Let's not discuss legal ramifications, as I'm dealing in hypotheticals where survival would take precedence.

 

[timothy75]

I'd go with the 110gr myself, lower recoil and I hear it acts like a giant 556 at closer ranges in that it totally fragments. Any 308 will defeat body armour so I wouldnt worry about that. Have you considered stocking up on cheap mil surplus? Much less money and no bad guy would know the difference. People who need TAP dont usually pay for it themselves. Good luck

 

[Dave R]

but also want good terminal close-range performance.

Sounds like any good hunting round would meet your needs. Anything that has the right terminal performance on a 100-300 lb deer or hog or whatever, would do about the same thing to a 100-300lb human.

My quick story...

I wanted to test terminal performance of a .308 hunting round, so I collected our plastic milk jusgs for a few weeks. Filled 'em with water and took 'em our to the desert. Stacked 'em in a line. 2 lines of 5 jugs each.

Shot the first line with milsurp 7.62 NATO at 25 yards. Thought I missed. When I looked closer, each jug was slowly leaking from a 7.62mm hole. Straight through all 5.

Shot the next line with Remington 150gr. Core-lokt. (Though my hindsight, most hunting ammo would do about the same). BIG explosion of water everywhere. First jug was almost flattened into a single ragged sheet. 2nd just also opened way up. 3rd jug huge jagged tear. 4th jug torn, and bullet veered out of it. Never made it to the 5th jug.

Just shows the difference in terminal performance between FMJ and bullets made to expand.

 

[hank327]

For a semi-auto battle rifle like your M1A, I would go with the cheapest soft point 150 grain load I could find. Something along the lines of the Remington Core-lokt mentioned above,the Federal Hi-shok or something similar. The terminal effects of these 150 grain hunting loads will be more than sufficient on
human size targets.

 

[LoneStarWings]

Thanks for the replies. The 110gr conerns me because of its lack of penetration, but I have heard that it basicaly disintegrates flesh in varmits/small game.

I guess I'm wandering into the ballistic tip vs. soft point debate. I'm sure either will work, but i tend to think the ballistic tip performs better in situations where meat preservation is not a consideration but maximum stopping power is.

 

[Nnobby45]

When just considering fight stopping ability, there's no ..308 bullet that doesn't amount to instant fight stopping ability, or close to it--including ball ammo.

Where over penetration, and barriers, are concerned, that's a different matter.

 

[PoorSoulInJersey]

10" of penetration is still quite a bit of damage to a person, especially considering the force that a 308 hits with.

Unless the target is wearing plate body armor, I don't think you have much to worry about.

 

[Nnobby45]

The only way a .308 round could penetrate as little as 10 inches is for to expand/disrupt so violently, and create such a devistating stretch cavity that you wouldn't have to worry about stopping power.

Anyone who's ever shot a deer sized game animal with a light, fast bullet in something like a .270 or .308 knows what happens, and how much ruined meat must be disgarded.

There are also people who have reservations about the .223 40gr. JHP, with a reported 10" of penetration. Those who've had to use it don't seem to be among the doubters.

 

[squidbilly]

As previously mentioned a .308 is a fight stopper. Even mil surp ball ammo is gonna stop whatever you hit. Make your rounds count, and your guarenteed a fight stopper! IMHO find a round your comfortable, and accurate with and stick with it! An M1A? Your talkin about my dream rifle... outstanding choice!

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

There are also people who have reservations about the .223 40gr. JHP, with a reported 10" of penetration.

.223 40gr JHP typically does a lot less than 10" of penetration in bare gel. For example, the Federal 40gr JHP does 5.75" in bare gel. If the gel is clothed to FBI standards (two layers of heavy denim), penetration actually improves to 9". On the other hand, when shooting through laminated windshield glass, the 40gr barely makes 1.5" in gel.

And that is one of the issues with a fast moving round that limits penetration by fragmenting violently. The smaller pieces shed velocity much faster. In the example above where the 40gr penetrated only 5.75", the retained weight was only 9gr.

The 110gr TAP is basically designed to minimize overpenetration concerns in an urban-type setting while still delivering impressive terminal performance - and as you can see by the gel shot, it does. The 155gr TAP is basically the same round; but with a little more weight to it to get the 12" minimum penetration recommended by the FBI. Personally, I think either one will probably do the job well; but I'd be curious how they perform through laminated safety glass. My guess would be that they are still good performers; but laminated safety glass is hard on bullets in its own right and especially on ballistic tip designs. Add to that the slope of most windshields can deflect rounds, and you can see some strange behavior on occasion (for example, in the link referenced above both the Federal 55gr FMJ and 40gr JHP penetrate steel better than they do laminated safety glass).

 

[buzz_knox]

7.62/.308's reputation for approaching an instant stop is largely attributable to those who haven't used/worked with it. Dr. Gary Roberts (the leading expert on ballistics) considers M80 to be in the same range as most FMJ rounds (sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't). Pat Rogers has discussed shooting the same NVA on multiple occasions during a single firefight. The NVA kept getting up after Pat would centerpuch him with an M14, requiring Pat to shoot him again and again.

 

[Al Thompson]

Lone Star, I'd recommend you buy one box and test fire it before stocking up. The cheaper JSP rounds may not function well due to the exposed lead tips. Then again, they might which is why I'd test'em out before commiting to a large purchase. I like the plastic tipped bullets as they feed better for me in my rifles than standard JSPs.

As for FMJ effectiveness, two books come to mind - one, Bing West's book on the battle for Fallujah mentions that Marine snipers were disappointed in their .308 loads as bad guys were running off after being shot and Blackhawk Down mentions ineffective M60 MG fire.

Luckily, we are not limited by policy to FMJ bullets.

 

[hardluk1]

Call georgia arms and get some of there 125gr nosler ballistic tips in 308. They will explode in the body and rarely penitrate though. They do turn the insides to a jelly like material when shot mid body and do drop amimals in there tracks.

 

[azredhawk44]

Lone Star, I'd recommend you buy one box and test fire it before stocking up. The cheaper JSP rounds may not function well due to the exposed lead tips.

+1, but there's a very simple fix to this.

The typical source of a tip-jam is the front leading edge of the magazine. If you depress the follower and file the sharp edge of the magazine front to a smooth rounded profile, you won't have this problem.

I can shoot 150 and 165gr softpoints from my M14 with no problems after doing this.

 

[25fan]

110 gr TAP's

I have taken 152 deer with these on a deer reduction project and love them. We needed a bullet that would do the damage, but have little chance of a pass through. I have shot head/neck, and vital areas with these bullets and have no real complaints. Don't know if I would recommend them for your next trophy hunt, but for what was required in regards to safety and humaneness, these were the ticket.

 

[lipadj46]

Have you considered stocking up on cheap mil surplus?

Cheap what now?

 

[john in jax]

I get regular MOA and some sub MOA groups using the inexpensive Federal 150 grn Power Shok soft point ammo (blue box) that my local Walmarts sell for around $15 for 20.

GA Arms 150 grn ballistic tips also seem to consistently shoot MOA and sub-MOA groups if I do my part. As mentioned above these ballistic tip bullets seem to explode when they hit - - good for deer and other light skinned game, NOT so good on hogs or tough, thick skinned, seemingly armored game.

 

[hardluk1]

john in jax, A buddy wanted a deer round for bucks after buy'n a 7stw some years back and i told him if he did not want to chase or hunt down the deer then shoot the BT's but shoot well forward and it worked great for some time . He was hunting in northern canada way out in the middle of no where. and took some nice deer. All dropped right on the spot. Back here he was shooting x bullets for does and general hunting and got screwed up one day and had the bt's with him and shot a really big doe at the end of the day at 185 yards running ,but hit it mid body. When he opened it up he said it was basicly luquid,looked like a it exploded and had lead fragments in amost all of the deer. He still use's them as do i but you do pick your shots abit more. At longer ranges 300+ they do work better,not as explosive. And yes, no hog hunting with them atleast for me ether.

 

[skinewmexico]

Shot placement. None of them will bounce off. I mean, have you read stories about guys getting shot with a 308, and getting up and continuing an attack?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I mean, have you read stories about guys getting shot with a 308, and getting up and continuing an attack?

Yes, I have and Al Thompson posted two references to stories like that in this thread. The .308 rounds listed in the original post are all great performers; but nothing hand held is 100% effective.