Belgium Guardian Model of 1878

[Slowhand]

I just acquired this Guardian Model of 1878 made by Clement & Fagnus Co. 9mm. I know what a Lefaueux Style looks like. LeFaucheux was a French arquebusier who invented the pin fire ignition system. I've done some reading on pin fires and appreciate their history and development.

It's in great shape.

The Gun Broker Pictures did her no justice. These are mine.

I've done my research she has the Liege Proof marks on her. The Oval with the E, L, G, * Star. With no crown. a * U Inspector mark. Made before 1892. Between 18 Aug 1818 - 11 June 1893.

I figured out awhile back converting a color photo to black and white has advantages.

No available references towards disassembly. I have David R. Chicone's Books "Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West" and "Antique Firearms Assembly/Disassembly" nothing listed there. I figure the two screws that hold the barrel on should be a start. The grips should come off easy enough. But after that.... it could get rough.

So other than an E Book does anyone know of a reference for this piece of history? A good old fashioned paper reference?

 

[mete]

Don't worry about take-down it may be much easier than you think. One of the easiest to take apart is the French military 1873. Mainspring is held by a cam lever !! The only screw is the grip screw !

 

[Slowhand]

Taking a closer look.

I removed the two screws as indicated above. I then used a brass punch to pop the barrel off. Unlike some Colts the ejection rod alone wasn't going to do it. I then took the grips off.

The next step would be to remove the two screws holding the Trigger Guard on. Take note of the 3rd screw just behind the trigger.

There is no screw retaining the flat main spring in the grip. The spring is retained against the hammer by the 3rd screw as can be seen at the top of where the spring fits into the frame. Pulling the hammer back to full cock results in the trigger coming back just short of the rear of the trigger guard and she’s ready to go.

I suspect the 3rd screw behind the trigger presses the spring against the frame. There is a small plate inserted into the frame, just behind the trigger. The insert should then come out.

Removing the screw should release the tension and allow removal of the flat spring. .

The next step would be to use a punch and remove the pin located just above the trigger. With the hammer forward the trigger should pull right out.

Next would be the removal of the screw located just below the hammer on the frame. At this point the hammer could be removed. The ejector rod assembly would be last.

But that's not going to happen today. I'm going to clean the barrel and the rest of the weapon thoroughly and reassemble her until a later date. Although the exterior is in great shape, the interior as shown needs some work.

I'm still looking for some references and tech information on how to continue past this point. So I'll leave it at a basic field cleaning for now.

 

[James K]

You were lucky that that gun has the barrel held by the two screws. On most of that type of revolver, the barrel is screwed on to the cylinder arbor and trying to drive it off would wreck the gun.

The lockwork is pretty straightforward. Just watch how things come out and you should have no problem in reassembly.

Jim

 

[Slowhand]

Luck and a Slowhand

Jim Kennan

I took my time with this. When I took the two screws out and tried to use the extractor rod to move the barrel it moved a bit forward. But the rod of course wasn't up to the job. So I gently applied some pressure, it started to move a bit and then I gave it a gentle tap using the brass punch and a bit of hard rubber. Popped right off.

Like you said though the lock work should be rather simple. I usually take good notes and pictures to remind myself how they came out and their positioning before extraction. Makes things a lot easier.

 

[Sulaco2]

Slowhand is that the orginal finish or has it been re-done? Looking at the condition of the barrel (inside) it makes me wonder...

 

[Slowhand]

Original Finish?



Good question. It has been suggested that "The eggshell of your piece indicates either a plated finish removal - or a bead-blasting to remove rust and scale." It was also suggested that it was a wire wheel job... a more common available option.

The only problem I have with that is the Scroll on the cylinder it reads: "The Guardian American Model of 1878.". The lines are just too solid, with no scratches or marks to indicate that a whole lot has been done to at least that part.

But the rest of the thing looks like it's seen some looks really roughed up. I've seen guns that have been re-blued. The cylinders and barrels have that discoloration that age brings, while the rest looks great. When I first got this thing I noted the condition of the barrel and the cylinder. I was wondering if it is an orignal finish?

I asked the previous owner (9 years) and he said that he had never taken it apart. So the discoloration could just be from old age and almost a decade of neglect. But I suspect she's been "restored". Maybe I should reverse the procedure an age her.

She's been heavily cleaned and spent yesterday evening and today soaking inside of a plastic bag. Partially disassembled and sprayed with Ballistol.

So far so good.

 

[Ideal Tool]

Nice old gun! Are ya planning on maken it talk again?

 

[Slowhand]

Make it talk again?

I don't think so.

She's a pin fire. I could reload some. Black Powder of course. A low charge.

I don't trust that barrel. Here is a closer look. Those rings say a lot.

Here is a picture from a reference that depicts a barrel with bulge lines. It's a "What to look for" example.

She's 133 years old. The cylinders were made of low-carbon steel and not heat-treated back then. Plus parts would be difficult to replace.

I think she's going to be a Safe Queen. I have plenty of replicas or modern weapons to shoot.

 

[Sulaco2]

Your sure those are "rings" inside the barrel or just corrosion from black powder neglect? I would think that a hand load of the "powder puff" level would be just the thing, bench test first of course!

It would be a shame if she could never speak again.

 

[R.O]

hi slowhand ,a lot of the belgian and dutch pinfire revolvers had no finish
I don't think it was sandblasted

 

[Slowhand]

Still researching and cleaning

Thanks for all the comments.

R.O.

I'm still researching on the finishes of Belgian, Dutch, French or where ever They have an interesting history. I've been reading W. W. Greeners "The Gun and It's Development". The 9th Edition from 1910. He wrote this thing originally in 1881. Load of good stuff.


Sulaco2

Could be just corrosion. She's still getting soaked in the baggiies and some good internal cleaning. I'm not over cleaning the outside. I want to preserve that finish regardless. The jury is still out on a range trip. If she were a regular BP Revolver no problems but the pin cartridge thing sort of hold things back in that direction.

Have a nice day.

 

[KateKrueger]

That is original finish...

I have one in our shop and tripped over this thread just when I needed to know more... Those pic's of the rounds are awesome. The one we have is a smaller caliber.. 7mm I think but the finish is the exact same... I'd like to lock down the caliber but ... the one I have is pretty clean, no corrosion, just a little funky looking... =)

But I guess I would be a little funky looking too at that age...

See Pic's (Click the link below)

Fun thread... Thanks,
Kate

http://www.derbyguns.com/Gun_Photos.php

 

[James K]

The more common pinfire rounds in collector quantity are not hard to find, running around $10 each; most large gun shows will have one or two cartridge collectors/dealers with assorted old cartridges. Now as to a couple of boxes to go plinking....

Jim

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Maybe my eyes are failing me, but I didn't see a whole lot of anything resembling rifling in the barrel. I half expect that when you scrub out the gunk and crud you'll also scrape out most of the lands.

 

[Ideal Tool]

Hello, Slowhand. I think the "original finish" is what you are seeing inside the cylinder chambers and barrel bore.."Bubba" went to town on that with a wire wheel!

 

[Slowhand]

They made more than 2 of them???

Nice to know a couple have survived over the years. I cleaned mine up and she's a Safe Queen. She's part of the Black Powder Cartridge Era (1856-1899) in my collection. All originals except for the first one at the top. An interesting period as hand guns evolved from the Cap & Ball Percussion.

As for the "original finish" who knows? I'm leaving it as is with no range trips. They didn't call them "Shooting Irons" for nothing back in the day. I have plenty of replicas and modern day stuff for shooting.

 

[Opinated]

My concern is the hammer main spring. I suspect that it is subject to breakage at any moment. I doubt that I would even attempt to cock the hammer unless I was willing to have a replacement spring made- and I do not know who makes those.

 

[Slowhand]

Parts

I read some where tha Dixie Guns works may have something available. I hit their web site but nothing came up. You might call them.

 

[gyvel]

Interestingly enough, there is another thread about the Guardian Model of 1878 prior to this one. In the previous thread, the revolver has a folding trigger.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=462674