Bear Rifle

[Uncle Ethan]

As deer are getting scarce in Western NM, my son wants to go Black Bear hunting. As he will be using a single shot #1 in .458 WM [loaded about as hot as a 45-90] I figured I had better have a backup rifle. I have a Remington number 8 in .35 Remington, and a Remington model 30 in .35 Whelen. I know the Whelen is sufficient for Black Bear, but if my son gets hooked on bear it is only a matter of time until we go to Alaska for a big one. I wondered about either re chambering the Whelen to .350 Norma Mag or using an old Spanish Mauser action I have to build a .350 Norma Mag and save my other rifles. Any of you guys got any suggestions? I know Art, but Toyota doesn't make a 4 banger rifle.

 

[Unkel Gilbey]

That old Spanish Mauser won't pass muster...

I would advise you to NOT use a Spanish (M1893-1895) Mauser for that 350 Norma Mag round.

A search through the archives here would probably turn up a lot of information about this, but suffice it to say that the '93 and 95's were designed for lower pressured cartridges. Also, I have to wonder if the 350 Norma Mag would fit into the magazine without modification?

That old Mauser was designed for a cartridge that made (max) about 47,000 C.U.P. and the Norma cartridge beats that by a ton.

Were I you, I'd get a 1898 Mauser (VZ-24, etc.) and build that up. You'd still have to open up the bolt face, and if you did this, it would probably be necessary to re-heat treat the action. Also, you'd have to work the magazine and the feed rails, and in the end, you'll be spending quite a bit of cash for something that might just be marginable. Who knows?

If money wasn't a problem, I'd get one of those Dakota Actions in Magnum size, and move on from there. Nice, but expensive.

Hope this helps!
Unkel Gilbey

 

[Uncle Ethan]

Unkel

Money is always a consideration- thks for your input on the Mauser- what about finding a British pattern 1914 Enfield action that already has the bolt face open, and that hellacious big ring up front?

 

[Mike Irwin]

.350 Norma Mag., or .358 Norma Mag? I know there's a .358 NM, and a .350 Rem. Mag., but I've never heard of a .350 NM.

Why not just buy a .338 Magnum and be done with it?

A LOT easier to feed, and I suspect cheaper, too.

I also occasionally see Remington 721s for sale chambered in .375 H&H. No bear's going to argue with that.

 

[Uncle Ethan]

Mike

If I went with the .338 I could get a BAR with the ported barrels and synthetic stock, but how jam proof are those BAR's. I'd hate to have a FTF with 500# of angry bear coming to eat my lunch.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Well, BAR's are reliable, from what I understand, but I'd feel kind of funny using one as a back-up for Bear myself.

I'd go with a ported Remington or even a Browning bolt action with the BOSS system.

Loaded with 250-gr. Nosler Partitions (Nosler REALLY needs a 275 or 300 gr. Partition!) you should be able to handload up to as much as 4,100 ft. pounds of energy.

 

[Art Eatman]

A recent article in Guns & Ammo noted that a survey of Alaskan guides revealed more one-shot kills from .300 magnums than from .338s. This could be more a matter of skill than cartridge, as even the guides commented...

I'd go with Keith Rogan's comments about the very hot .45-70s, insofar as a backup gun when hunting with another who is the actual primary hunter. If things go all to garbage, a bone-breaker that's quick and maneuverable at the proverbial "That's too close!" range seems like a Good Thing. Keith's comments lead me to believe that "just" a heart shot won't do, once Ol' Biggie is wounded and mad. Ya gotta break legs and/or spine...

Art

 

[Unkel Gilbey]

The P14 would be a decent choice...

But in it's original form is chambered for 303 British, a rimmed cartridge. Usually, custom rifle builders would use the P17 Enfield which was chambered in 30-06.

From a modification standpoint, I would defer to a smith with more experience, but I tend to think that the Pattern 17 would be a better choice for modification. Just the extractor alone would make things difficult (P14 vs. P17).

Mike, thanks for setting me straight on the 358 Norma Mag. You're absolutely correct there. I guess I was confusing it with Remingtons 350 Rem Mag.

At any rate, I wonder about the availability of these old Enfields. 50 years ago, they were a dime a dozen, and smiths all over were hotrodding them and doing all sorts of crazy stuff with them. I guess when the DCM is selling them off from $5-15.- a pop, you can't help but want to play! Anymore, I think if you were to find one for less than $250.--, you'd be really lucky. Better again to try to find a Mauser, or better yet, a Marlin in 45-70!

Good Luck!
Unkel Gilbey

 

[Mike Irwin]

Well, if you're going to go to the hassle of having a gun custom made, and you want large bullets moving fast, it's a pretty simple thing to chamber a P14/M1917 action for .458 Winchester.

Overall length is virtually the same as the .358 Norma, and is the same as the .338 Win. Mag.

While it's a whopper and seems to be overpowered, the .458 is actually an exceptionally flexible cartridge, downloadable to .45-70 ballistics and it simply SINGS with lead bullets.

One former coworker of mine made a .458 on a Remington .375 H&H action he had. He used downloaded rounds to shoot groundhogs on his farm.

Of course, if you want to get nostalgic on a bear's ass, there's always the .416 Rigby, one of the greatest of the big bores.

 

[wily wylie]

Bear caliber? Easy answer

March/April 2005 Petersen's RifleShooter magazine:
Page 34-41 Powder Efficiency of 46 Modern Rifles
.22-250 to .460 Weatherby

Hands down recommended rifles and most efficient:

.35 Whelen 45.28 lbs
.35 Whelen Ackley Improved 50.61 lbs
.358 Norma Magnum 42.19

.416 Remington Magnum 56.64 lbs
.458 Winchester Magnum 50.64 lbs

Give some thought to reaming your .35 Whelen to Ackley Improved.

And like somebody said,
.458 Winchester is EXTREMELY flexible, being a straight case,
you can load it real light and shoot small critters.

My .458 was made up from a low price, Interarms Whitworth barreled action.
A nice piece of marbled walnut I paid $17.50 at an acution,
and
a bargain on a Kahles 2.75x scope.

Weighs 9 lbs., comes to my shoulder like it's 'part of me.'
Sure "purty". Not for sale at ANY price. . . I love it !

Interarms Mark X & others are pretty reasonable prices.
I would consider iron sights or a Fixed power scope.

Happy pondering. . .

 

[wily wylie]

Bear cartridge

BTW:
I also have a .358 Norma Magnum that I bought several years ago,
built on a Weatherby Vanguard/synthetic stock.

It is a real honker. I love it, too. But not 'purty', like muh .458 Winchester.

On the .358 NM, you're kinda limited on bullet selection.

You have to use pricey bullets that will hold together under the high pressure and velocity.

I use Barnes Xs. Very good sectional density.

I'll consider molycoated the next batch, if available.

If possible, take a look at p. 39 of the March/April, 2005 RifleShooter magazine
Might give you some interesting ideas & help you sort out what to choose.

 

[wily wylie]

Bear cartridge -again

Your son has a .458 Winchester Magnum. . . . Right?

Seems like a no-brainer.
Get a .458.

Your son has a .458.
You BOTH use the SAME ammo. Duh !

 

[Jseime]

hit em hard

pick up a marlin 1895GS. that old .45-70 will put em down real fast. or if you think longer range shots are going to be taken try a .375H&H mag with a low power variable on it. you could get a .458 too its sure too bad savage just dropped their .458 win mag offering

 

[Huntergirl]

you can get a stock Marlin 45-70 that will handle the heaviest Garrett loads, and be confident with that back up rifle. Practicing with it will be much more pleasing than with with a 338/400+ magnum. And practice is very important.