BATFE Records

[Aguila Blanca]

Do firearms manufacturers submit copies of their serial number and date records to the BATFE on a regular basis? If so, are these lists public record? They don't include any proprietary information, and they don't identify who bought the firearms, so I can't think of any reason why they would not be subject to FOIA laws.

I've been communicating with the owner of the M1911.org forum about their Para serial number project: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=616869

John, the owner of M1911.org, was a personal friend of Ted Szabos, the founder and president of Para-Ordnance. I once met Ted, through John. Ted was a very nice guy, and extremely interested in making good firearms better. Sadly, he died unexpectedly, in the chair at what was supposed to be a routine dental procedure. We can only speculate what Para-Ordnance would be today if Ted had not died so unexpectedly and in such an untimely fashion.

As a Para-Ordnance shooter myself, I would like to see this build date project achieve critical mass. As some of you know, Para-Ordnance was a Canadian company. When Ted Szabos owned and ran it, they were in Ontario. A few years after his death, they moved production to North Carolina, then sold out to Remington. Remington moved production again, and then killed off the brand and ceased production of double-stack 1911 pistols.

Remington has, in the past, responded to inquiries regarding build date of Canadian Para-Ordnance pistols, but their data are generally wrong. They say they are providing what they received from ParaUSA, but I don't believe that Para-Ordnance or ParaUSA kept such woefully inaccurate records. (I know they are inaccurate, because some of my Paras were purchased new and had dated, fired cases with them.)

The thought occurred to me that I might be able to obtain complete lists from the BATFE -- if manufacturers are required to submit that information and , if so, if such information is considered to be a public record.

Does anyone know?

 

[dogtown tom]

Aguila Blanca Do firearms manufacturers submit copies of their serial number and date records to the BATFE on a regular basis?

Yes.
We do that on a Form 2 by close of business the following day:https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/form-2-notice-firearms-manufactured-or-imported-atf-form-53202/download

If so, are these lists public record?

I don't know, but they aren't published by ATF.

They don't include any proprietary information, and they don't identify who bought the firearms, so I can't think of any reason why they would not be subject to FOIA laws.

I don't see why not.

Remington has, in the past, responded to inquiries regarding build date of Canadian Para-Ordnance pistols, but their data are generally wrong. They say they are providing what they received from ParaUSA, but I don't believe that Para-Ordnance or ParaUSA kept such woefully inaccurate records. (I know they are inaccurate, because some of my Paras were purchased new and had dated, fired cases with them.)

Ever used the "Date My Firearm" lookup at Browning? It's very inaccurate.

The thought occurred to me that I might be able to obtain complete lists from the BATFE -- if manufacturers are required to submit that information and , if so, if such information is considered to be a public record.

You might get lucky.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Thanks. It's worth a try.

Unfortunately, though, I don't know it will apply during the period when Para-Ordnance was in Canada. Although the guns made during that period were marked Para-Ordnance, Ft. Lauderdare, FL -- so they must have had a U.S. office, and that may have brought their Canadian manufacturing under the oversight of the bat boys.

 

[dogtown tom]

Aguila Blanca
Unfortunately, though, I don't know it will apply during the period when Para-Ordnance was in Canada.

You wouldn't be looking at manufacturer records, but importer records.

Although the guns made during that period were marked Para-Ordnance, Ft. Lauderdare, FL -- so they must have had a U.S. office,

Any firearm imported into the US must be marked with the importers name and location. That importer is required to be licensed.

The name the importer uses may not be exactly the name as the manufacturer, In some cases the foreign manufacturer owns the US importer:
Beretta/ Beretta USA
FN/FN USA
FN/Browning

For others, the importer is a wholly separate company:
Burgu/Buffalo Cartridge Co.
Tisas/ SDS Imports
Bersa/RSA

and that may have brought their Canadian manufacturing under the oversight of the bat boys.

ATF has no oversight of foreign manufacturers.

 

[44 AMP]

I've seen figures publicly released in the past, (lagging a year or two, of course) giving the number of firearms made annually, by type (rifle, shotgun, handgun) and manufacturer. Don't recall if it was from the ATF or some other govt agency.

This is not the data on firearms SOLD, but data from the manufacturers on how many were made....

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I've seen figures publicly released in the past, (lagging a year or two, of course) giving the number of firearms made annually, by type (rifle, shotgun, handgun) and manufacturer. Don't recall if it was from the ATF or some other govt agency.

This is not the data on firearms SOLD, but data from the manufacturers on how many were made....

I know about those reports. This project is a serial number looup chart, so that any Para owner can look up his serial number and find the date of manufacture.