Barf alert: Brady Campaign to DOT on arming pilots...

simonov jr

New member
:barf:

Am I the only one who thinks taking this position on this issue at this time will cost them...LARGE?

http://www.bradycampaign.org/home/archives/pdf/021202.pdf

Here are some exerpts:

February 12, 2002
Public Docket Office
Department of Transportation

Re: Request for Comments, Firearms, Less-Than-Lethal Weapons, and Emergency
Services on Commercial Air Flights

The Brady Center submits these comments in response to proposals to allow
pilots to carry firearms on commercial flights. In the wake of the horror of September 11,
it is entirely appropriate to subject our air travel security system to rigorous
reexamination to ensure that airliners never again become terrorist weapons of mass
destruction. However, we have serious concerns about the wisdom of a policy that would
require, or even allow, commercial pilots to carry guns onto airliners as a means of
ensuring the security of planes and their passengers.

First, there is no question that there are risks associated with bringing a firearm
onto an airliner, even under color of legal authority. The firearm brought on board for
the use of the pilot may itself end up being used against the crew or innocent passengers.
There is a grave risk that the legal firearm brought
aboard the plane by the pilot or crew will itself be the object of a terrorist’s skyjacking
plan or even the disruptive conduct of an intoxicated or hostile passenger.
Second, it may be unwise to invest the pilot or crew, as opposed to trained law
enforcement personnel, with the responsibility for the use of lethal force in defense of the
airplane and its passengers. Even if pilots and their crew were trained in
firearms safety and use, appropriate use of force and shoot/don’t shoot scenarios, it is
difficult to imagine that their competence could approach that of trained law enforcement
personnel. School systems faced with violent acts committed by students did not respond
by arming teachers and administrators. Companies faced with the possibility of violent
acts from customers nevertheless have insisted that their employees remain “gun free”
while at work.
Third, it is problematic to implement a high-risk strategy of enabling pilots and
crew members to bring guns onto planes, when other low-risk strategies to prevent
terrorist violence are not being pursued. The highest priority of homeland security
should be prevention. In the specific context of air travel, this means intensifying
passenger and luggage screening at airports, and perhaps changing the design and
equipment of airplanes to prevent easy cockpit access for unauthorized personnel. The
threat of terrorism, however, is hardly confined to the commandeering of commercial
aircraft. In the broader societal context, homeland security also requires sensible laws
and policies to prevent terrorists from having access to guns. Guns and terrorism go
together. There are obvious and sensible
strategies that should be implemented to reduce access to guns by terrorists and criminals.
These include requiring background checks on all gun sales, retaining records of gun
purchases for law enforcement purposes and repealing senseless statutory constraints on
the regulatory and enforcement powers of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.


www.sarahbradycampagin.org: Make fun of an anti; it really pisses them off.
 

RHarris

New member
School systems faced with violent acts committed by students did not respond by arming teachers and administrators. Companies faced with the possibility of violent acts from customers nevertheless have insisted that their employees remain “gun free” while at work.

Perhaps if they did, violent acts in schools and work might be stopped, or maybe never happen in the first place.
 

BenW

New member
There is a grave risk that the legal firearm brought aboard the plane by the pilot or crew will itself be the object of a terrorist’s skyjacking plan

Oh, now that's rich! So now besides flying to the US to obtain their weapons through newspaper classified ads, terrorists are going to skyjack aircraft for the specific purpose of obtaining a pistol?!?
 

BogBabe

New member
There is a grave risk that the legal firearm brought aboard the plane by the pilot or crew will itself be the object of a terrorist’s skyjacking plan

But . . . but . . . isn't there a "grave risk" that the legal plane being flown by the pilots will itself be the object of a terrorists's skyjacking plan?

What dunderheads. They are so against even the most legitimate and defensible use of firearms that they would rather see another 9/11 happen than allow pilots to be armed.
 

Futo Inu

New member
"School systems faced with violent acts committed by students did not respond
by arming teachers and administrators. Companies faced with the possibility of violent
acts from customers nevertheless have insisted that their employees remain “gun free”
while at work."

So, if your two idiot friends jump off a cliff, you are going to definitely follow? An error of logic that most 7th graders could point out.
 

Bog

New member
Oh dear gh0d. Is it just me, or isn't the pilot already responsible for the lives and wellbeing of his passengers and crew? Like, with the big wheelie thing in front of him, with the sticks and the levers and the things?

Nah... must just be me...

I think I need a lie down, now.
 

Waitone

New member
The issue of arming pilots especially after 911 is a hill the anti-gun types must die on. They have no choice but make a stand and fight to the last.

Why?

Because by arming pilots the federal government is posting a billboard beside the road which says, "We can not protect you even under the best of circumstances!" The belly of a airliner is perhaps the most controlled environment in the US. Extraordinary provisions are take to ensure those who enter an aircraft are completely defenseless. The theory is make is impossible for implements of destruction to gain access and you therefore make unfortunate events not happen.

By arming pilots government has just admitted that under the best of circumstances it can not protect everyone at all times. What is one to say for situations where super security is not possible. . . . .say every day life for Martha Mortgage Joe Sixpack. If Martha and Joe conclude they are responsible for their own protection, they might also conclude 1. they were hosed off by government previously, 2. why do we need all those people to protect us is they can't protect us, and 3. the most effecient and cost effective way of protecting themselves is the very means government house has decreed as being unacceptable.

My reading of the situation is anti-gun forces will go all out ot keep guns out of the cockpit because of what is says about the ability of government house to defend and protect.
 

Bog

New member
Waitone:

Has anyone told you today that you're a smart bunny? If not, consider yourself told.
 

Phil Ca

New member
During my years in the military the pilots of the planes I flew on were armed and I do not recall any hi-jack attempts then. IMO, I would rather fly on a plane that has an armed pilot and co-pilot over non armed pilots. Unless this gets ironed out in favor of arming the crew I will pretty much consider my flying days over.

Having been a member of a police department for over 20 years and understanding that all too much of the current policing is reactive rather than proactive, people need to understand that there will not be a cop on every corner like Japan with the Koban box and a stationery officer assigned there. People need to be responsible for their own actions. If someone goes to a bad part of town, parks his car and eventually gets attacked by a street gang, he needs to evaluate his actions. Either you protect yourself or call 911 if the bad guys did not take your phone or leave you in a bloody lump on the street.

As for the school shootings in the past, the news mavens conveniently disregard the times when an armed teacher or student stopped any further damage by the perp in question.

While the government is busily sending signals about gun control and less conflict, they are arming more and more people all the time. Why would FDA and HUD need armed agents? I have had agents from such agencies on my range for qualifcation. They were so strapped for money our agency provided the ammo for this once a year training. Look on the net under the USTD web site and scroll down to FLETC, (Federal Law Enforcement training Center). BTW, this is where much of the training for a national police force will/is be carried out.
 
Incredible! Their stupidity knows no bounds. An armed pilot is in a better position to resist and prevent reoccurences of 9/11 and yet the Brady Bunch would have us suffer the consequences of passenger aircraft colliding with skyscrapers. Incredible!
 

Monkeyleg

New member
"Guns and terrorism go
together."

They've been trying that tack since 9/11, and the public doesn't seem to be buying it.
 

labgrade

Member In Memoriam
A true "man bites dog" story = "gun control group shoots self in foot." ;)

They must counter as such & have no choice. If ever they come out & say that there is any legitimate use for firearms, the dam will break ....

Something that disturbs me to no end however is many of our own's take on this whole "arm the pilots" mess.

I'm all for arming the pilots - make no mistake, but it goes deeper than that.

I would suspect that the whole attitude of giving in to the perp is long past - no more free trips to Havana, etc. If an A/C cockpit door is (allegedly) secure, any hi-jacker can cut throats (in the cabin) to a fair-thee-well & that plane's going nowhere but to the nearest landing strip that can accomodate an A/C of that size.

Good enough on the face of it, but consider that if it doesn't, we've (allegedly) got F16s, et al, flying CAP & no commercial-size A/C will again be allowed to plow into anything substantial = it'll be shot out of the sky (hopefully, over some farmer's corn field rather than over Chicago).

So. Arming the pilots is a way only to prevent damage on the ground & has nothing, nada, zip to do with your safety whilst flying.

You're meat & will be treated as such.

& never forget it.
 

BogBabe

New member
we've (allegedly) got F16s, et al, flying CAP & no commercial-size A/C will again be allowed to plow into anything substantial = it'll be shot out of the sky (hopefully, over some farmer's corn field rather than over Chicago).

The anti's are just fine with that, apparently. I guess they consider shooting down a commercial airliner over a major population center much safer than a pilot resisting with a (gasp) gun!
 

LonWilson

New member
A lot of people who were either fence sitters or anti-gunners that I know of have changed their opinion, somewhat, since 9/11. But when I tell them that the people who support gun control (like Brady Campaign and VPC) said that pilots shouldn't be armed, they were like "What? Why do they believe that?".

I told them that they believed that it's okay to shoot a plane down with an F-16 then let the pilots have a gun.

Needless to say, they signed up for firearms training courses, and joined a few gun rights groups. :)
 

labgrade

Member In Memoriam
Good thing the pilots & (end result) A/C & those on the ground are "safe."

But do take this to its logiocal conclusion folks = those of you in that cabin can be cut to ribbons = doesn't matter one whit & nobody's addressing that concern ... you're sheep meat for all they care ....

Arn the pilots? Yup, please do, but do have a steam cleaner handy for you in the passenger area 'cause you don't matter one bit.

Homeland Security, don'tcha know? (sheesh!)
 

KSFreeman

New member
My fav part was "trained law enforcement." LOL!!!

To heck with the pilots. I want to be armed. I don't (well, I do) understand why someone with 100s of hours of training cannot carry and some ex-blue suiter who shot a pistol once before retiring will be able to carry. Geez.:rolleyes:
 

Bog

New member
Any guesses on the percentage of pilots "illegally" carrying at the moment?

I don't know airline procedures, but I'm not sure if anyone's thought to scan the pilots (all those metal flight wings, et cetera must drive a metal detector nuts) before they board. Map cases, stuffed with metal-bound binders would also make a natural cache.

I have a pretty good idea of human nature, though, and I know full well that if I was in that little aluminium room, I'd have gotten myself a bit of self-determination aboard somehow.

Side bet: Any takers on the shrill reaction to a pilot or nav capping a would-be terr in flight? "Oh, he used a gun against someone with a knife! How unfair!"

*smoulder*
 

riverdog

New member
Bog,
The pilot's organizations here in the U.S. have formally requested to be armed. I'd love to see it happen, we'll see where that goes. I'm not holding my breath. Right now though, they are screened and x-ray'd just like us common passengers. FAA would pull their tickets if they were caught.

Passengers are taking responsibility for policing the cabin. In most any situation, the terrorists will be outnumbered by a wide margin. As long as the playing field is flat (ie., no weapons per se) the passengers can do fine.

I'm one of the few on this board who doesn't believe that anyone with a CCW should be allowed to carry. While I trust the vast majority of CCW holders (IR1), the docs are too easy to forge and the admin of checking each person's documentation and identity would be way to difficult. It would be too easy to allow a group of armed terrorists to fly.

Since the primary goal of this effort is to ensure the plane doesn't become a cruise missile, control of the cockpit is critical -- arm the pilots.
 
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