Ban in your State-- Part II

[Jordan]

Digressing a little--
In Part I of this thread, HukeOKC said something to the effect of "...when others pick up their guns you'll know it's time.."

Here's a story: When I was in 4th grade there was an older bigger bully type, hated and feared by all. I and a friend rallied a small group thinking that together we could put this kid in his place and get a little sweet revenge for years of torment.
The plan went like this-- my friend would approach the bully, flat-out pick a fight with him, and on his signal (a wave of his arm) we'd all jump in to back him up trouncing the playground tyrant.
Well, all went as planned until the arm waving part at which point all of about six of us reinforcments got cold feet and watched my friend get thrashed.
I feel a profound sense of shame about this incident to this day. (not the playground antics part, though it was admittedly dumb, but the betrayal part)

I have no great faith that gun owners would behave any differently or better. Our official line would be, "This is not the element we want associated with. We condemn this maverick's/rogue group's actions. We (insert righteous tone) take 'The High Road'".

We will stand by with clean hands (and dirty conscience) and watch our friends get thrashed.

 

[BTR]

Well, there is zero real support for what you are discussing. If every member of the NRA wrote their congressmen, I think it highly likely no gun control would ever be passed. With 3.3 million members of the NRA, every senator would get thirty three thousand letters protesting every gun control initiative. Representatives would get hundreds. Gun control would be defeated, legally, every time. Politicians will say it's not the NRA's cash that defeats gun control, it's ticked off NRA members writing and calling representatives.

However, it doesn't happen, at least not always. It's foolish to pretend a tiny fraction of gunowners is going to overthrow the entire government, when that same fraction, if they cared enough to write congress would get whatever they wanted legally. Pro-control people have relatively few members. HCI doesn't even have half a million, and I think their membership is cheaper. If a small fraction of gunowners cared, even if all NRA members cared, none of us would be talking about the "Second Amerian Revolution."

I think TFL gives an unrealistic impression of gunowners, that is, that a lot of them actually care. We sure do, but this is not a group of representative gunowners. Supposedly, most gun owners support whatever stupid laws are seriously proposed- banning "assualt rifles", "saturday night specials", registration, and permits. Case in point- my dad owns seven guns, and got me into shooting. He's no longer an NRA member. He didn't like the NRA's stance on "assualt rifles" apparently. (To be fair, I think he's coming around. He's mentioned to me several times that private sales are good, and he even looked at- I can't believe it- a Tec-9.)

To put it simply, most gunowners don't care, a "Revolution" would fail, and grass roots lobbying would work- if there was support. Let's build support, instead of pointlessly thinking about shooting people.

 

[scud]

The unfortunate problem that is being had with the lobbying faction is that you have to be in the conspiracy / gun nut realm to pay enough attention to know what's going on, most gun owners simply don't pay that much attention. It leaves a very small minority to even say or do anything. I would be shocked if 70% of the gun owners out there even disagree with the current laws until they directly affected them. It's a shame but the "not in this country" attitude is still very present.

Edited - a few screw ups.

[This message has been edited by scud (edited April 21, 2000).]

 

[bookkie]

BTR:

I have to agree with you bout most of the gun owners not caring. I've seen it in our hunting club. However, times are a changin'. Over the past year I have seen about of third of these people wake up. See here in CA even a lot of their hunting guns are under attack. With SB 23 a few of my fellow shooters now have illegal guns. Are they turning them in? No. And they will not. I think you will find that the more gun laws they pass the more gun owners that will eventually come over to our side. I've even gotten a few of them to the point where they are studying the constitution. This is good.



------------------
Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!

 

[Jordan]

BTR: You seemed to have missed my point almost entirely.

-You're saying an overthrow wouldn't work...I'm saying an overthrow wouldn't work (remember my story?).

I didn't address the lobbying aspect because I quit entertaining that notion years ago for the EXACT reasons you cited-- not enough interest/base of support to tip the balance. We can wish there was but, realistically, THERE IS NOT.

You're funny when you say, "A revolution would FAIL because of not enough support. Lobbying would WORK if it had enough support." Kind of a humorous, circular arguement.

TFL: History, logic, trends, prophesy (if I may), Global example, Global pressures all put us inexorably on the door step of disarmement. The one-step-forward-two-steps-back defense (lobbying, etc) only defers the bloody climax a few years making it my children's problem. IN MY OPINION, THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE.

If my children are never born because I died trying to prevent that, well, that may be the best thing I ever did for them.

 

[BTR]

Jordan, you are right, I phrased that sentance badly. But which do you think would get more support from gunowners- buying stamps and writing letters, or shooting police and soldiers, and facing certain death? Which is preferable? Which I more likely to work?

Obviously, the first.

And if you give up lobbying because it doesn't have enough support, why would you support something much nastier, which has less suppport? And if you don't want your kids to grow up in this country, it would seem a better thing to move, or refuse to have kids, rather than die trying to murder some cops, and be killed for no practical reason.

We all know that any attempt at blowing away cops and soldiers is pointless. If there's anything that would make our cause die even faster, it's murders committed by "patriots." Remember the OK bombing, and the lovely press we got out of that?

I'm tired of this crap about revolution. It's stupid and pointless. All we do by talking about it is blow off steam. Congress tries to pass some dumb law, so we spout off about "feeding the hogs" or something like that. To what end? To commit murder? To die for no reason at all? To further distance ourselves from the mainstream, and lose every last shred of credibility?

 

[The Rock]

Ho boy...

Sometimes I wonder why people beat there heads into walls...

The Rock is reminded of two qoutes from long ago:
'If a government in power likes you, you're a freedom fighter. If they don't, you're a terrorist.'

'If you kill government agents and enforcers, you're a freedom fighter; if you kill women and children, you're a terrorist.'

BTR:

We have no credibility. None. Our only friends are ourselves, and that is not surprising.

Hypothetical ?:
Is it murder if they deserve it? By them I mean whoever. Klinton, the Butcher of Waco, a convicted murderer, et al

TR

 

[BTR]

Oh, we do have credibility, as long as we refrain from plotting the destruction of the US government. The NRA has about six times the membership of HCI. While it's true that most gunowners don't care, the other side of the coin is true as well- most people that favor gun control don't care either.

And what good is revenge? None whatsoever. It feels good to talk about how much you hate Clinton, but it does not repeal one single gun law, recruit one single neutral person, or sway a single judge or congressman.

The logic for a revolution seems to go like this: "We can't win politically! The public doesn't support us. The media hates us. We don't have enough money, and our organization is not effective. Most gunowners don't agree completely with us. Therefore, we are going to have to take over country!"

 

[Jordan]

BTR: I can only hope that readers of this thread recognize the complete lack of association between what I have said and what you have argued against.

"Murder", "Revenge", "..blowing away cops and soldiers"! What are you talking about? I didn't *write* anything like that. And, having witnessing you dabble in mind-reading, I'd encourage you to stick with your day job because that's not what I was *thinking* either.

What I plainly stated was:
-A childhood story illustrating my opinion concerning the propensity among gunnys roll over when their personal interests are the least bit jeopardized.
-My disillusion towards working "within the system".

That there may be an entire spectrum of possibilities between that and "Murder", "Revenge", or "Revolution" is a consideration that escaped you.
(If I must spell it out here's ONE example: Overt Passive Resistance(?))

As for your dread of distancing ourselves from the "mainstream"... Have you noticed the direction the "main stream" is flowing?

 

[labgrade]

As good a place to put this as anywhere ....

Thing is. You cannot continue to just give money to "The NRA" (read any "gun-lobby") and expect anything good to happen out of it.
You are expecting some mercenary outfit to do your own "dirty work." It ain't happenin', folks.

YOU, yup, yourself, has to get active and actually participate in the process. Damn! We really haven''t even tried that yet!

We have (call it) 3.5 million NRA members that give their $s to some lobby & expect them to do "what's right."

Why should they care!? If "the problem" is solved, they lose their influence, their $s & their living.

(& BTW, this all coming from a(n all but) Life Member NRA) ... the staus quo isn't cutting it.

YOU, yourself, must get active and actually participate in your own government. Sure, pay yours dues to the pro-rights orgs but if, for one second you think that somehow "they'll" do it for you, you are absolutely wrong.

As with Jordan's initial post, yup, "Let's do this!," but if nobody else does the follow through, it's those that actually do anything that get their butts kicked and the rest of you will sit back & say "well, when they come for MY guns, I'll .... " ....

Right, you'll sit back & do nothing ... just like you're all doing nothing right now.

I gotta tell ya .... some of "the brethren" are as bad (or worse) than those who would attempt to strip us of our rights.

At the very least, we know where the "bad guys" stand. Those of you who purport to stand for your own very rights and will not, are, in many ways, worse than any that "they" could throw against us.

Buncha sissies.

You either do or you don't.

" .... may your chains lay lightly against you & may we always forget that you were ever our brethern .... "

Either get with it or shut up!

If not now, when?