Bad .44 pistol or Ammo?

[Wild Bill Bucks]

These pictures were sent to me because I own a .44 Super Red Hawk. Supposedly this pistol was loaded with China made ammo.
I can't tell what kind of pistol this is, but thought you guys could shed some light for me. Do you think this was a cheap made weapon, or is it conceivable that the ammo could have been the problem?
I can't get the picture zoomed in close enough to tell what kind of pistol this is without it blurring on me.

 

[Wild Bill Bucks]

This is the best view as far as ID on the pistol.

 

[CWKahrFan]

Looks like a S&W 629 to me...
I dunno, something seems kinda fishy about that whole scenario to me... How could 2 (or 3?) rounds explode at the same time, neither of which seems to be the round which was lined up with the firing pin???... Very odd... I suppose if the topmost middle round was highly overcharged it must've simultaneously cracked the cylinder on both sides with such force that it superheated/blasted through the casings of the rounds on each side and ignited them too causing a triple-whammy big bang!... Scary!...

 

[Scorch]

Yes, it is a S&W 629.

I suppose if the topmost middle round was highly overcharged it must've simultaneously cracked the cylinder on both sides with such force that it superheated/blasted through the casings of the rounds on each side and ignited them too causing a triple-whammy big bang!

I saw those pictures last year, and that is apparently exactly what happened.

 

[Mike Irwin]

This has been posted here before, I think, as well as other places on the web.

I do not believe that any .44 Magnum ammo has been loaded in China for the American market.

General concensus is that it was a handloading mistake, very likely someone loading what they think is a charge of slow burning powder like WW 296 suitable for magnum loads, but actually snaking a can of Bullseye or WW 231 off the shelf instead.

And yes, often when an overcharge is enough to destroy a chamber like that it will often rip open the chambers on either side and set those rounds off as well.

 

[Niner4Tango]

Classic double charge failure.

Like Mike said, if you use a fast powder and the wrong charge weight you can get this. A common mistake is to use a fast powder and the right charge weight, but accidentally throw 2 charges into one case. Always a good idea to use a powder that fills the case more than halfway to avoid this. At least until you develop good habits of visually inspecting all cases before seating the bullet.

These photos have been floating around the internet since late 2009 at least. I guess it's still valuable to repost them, since this mistake is common enough among handloaders. Too bad they are always accompanied by speculation that the revolver was defective - that just adds confusion.

 

[moxie]

That was more than a double charge. If it wasn't C-4, then somebody tamped the Bullseye in as tight as they could get it. What you are seeing is detonation, not deflagration. Triple charge??

 

[Tom Servo]

If it wasn't C-4, then somebody tamped the Bullseye in as tight as they could get it. What you are seeing is detonation, not deflagration. Triple charge??

Don't laugh; I've seen it. I had a guy blow up one a S&W 520 (the new one, not the cool N-Frame) with a load that was roughly a triple charge.

It looked much the same: cylinder blown open, topstrap sheared, forcing cone cracked. There's a much longer, sadder story, but the upshot is that he loaded a 180gr bullet over 27 grains of H110. The process apparently involved using a ballpoint pen to tamp all the powder into the case, as well as an aggressive crimp.

The fact that I kept a straight face through the guy's explanation and subsequent tirade about Smith's supposedly shoddy quality control is proof of my eligibility for sainthood.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"That was more than a double charge."

Well, what would 23 grains of WW 231 be?

Roughly a triple to quadruple charge if one were shooting for 23 grains of WW 296 with a 240-gr. bullet?

More than enough to blow a cylinder to hell and back.

I've often thought that manufacturers would do well to color code their powders like Red, Blue and Green dot.

 

[Daggitt]

Our LGS here has a revolver that is in similar condition. It is not a picture , it's the actual gun. He shows it to folks who expresss first time reloading interest. He tells them , this is where you are headed if you're careless. I have to admire his motives in placing safety in front of this month's sales totals. Like Robert Duvall said in Lonesome Dove ,"Let that be a lesson to all of us..." to be more careful and always be on the lookout for trouble. It only takes one mistake and diasaster can ensue.You can not shoot if you can not see. Was reloading some 45 Colt last night and the phone rang. When I returned to the press I had forgotten where I stopped. Dumped all 20 or so rounds in progress back in the powder can and recalibrated the scale and started over. It was the only thing that made sense to me once I was less than certain where I left off at. As long as one is careful however it sure beats the cost and availability of factory ammo.

 

[James K]

I have seen those pictures several times, usually posted by Ruger fans who want to show how cheap and flimsy S&W's are compared with their super strong Rugers that can't possibly be blown up. Alas, I have seen a Ruger SBH in almost exactly that condition, including the three open chambers. It was fired with what was later determined to be a triplex load with three different kinds of powder. (No, I don't know the IQ of the reloader - I suspect he had read too many gunzines.)

Jim

 

[Mike Irwin]

Duplexing and triplexing loads, if done correctly by a very experienced and careful reloader, can have some dramatically beneficial results.

To me, though, it's way too much like black magic. A tiny error one way or the other and you unleash the evil demons inside.

Oh, and I"m sorry...

23 to 25 grains of Bullseye or 231? That's going to open up a Ruger like a can of cheap tuna.

 

[Tom Servo]

23 to 25 grains of Bullseye or 231? That's going to open up a Ruger like a can of cheap tuna.

I seem to remember a 240gr load that was pushing it at 10 grains of 231. 25?

So, if Johnny makes a loading that does 1300ft/s at ten grains, and he loads the same ammunition at 25 grains, how many fingers does he have left? Bonus question: how quickly will S&W customer service hang up on him when he blames them and threatens to sue?

 

[James K]

Oh, the owner of the Ruger SBH wanted us to send the gun back to Ruger because it was defective. He said (ready for this?), "It must be a bad one because everyone knows it is impossible to blow up a Ruger with any load!"

We suggested he send the gun back himself, but he finally told us to keep it and went away cussing cheap junk Rugers.

Jim

 

[Technosavant]

I've often thought that manufacturers would do well to color code their powders like Red, Blue and Green dot.

That would make it easy to identify at a glance (I've been using Clay Dot for shotshell... little orange flakes...), but it's also very easy to avoid with simple reloading discipline.

Works with ONE powder type and ONE ONLY (if you plan on mixing stuff, you're on your own) at a given time. When you're done with it, put it away, clean up the equipment, THEN and only then can you get out the next type.

Maybe I'm a bit simplistic of a reloader, since I try to keep powder types to a minimum (right now, it's Clay Dot, Universal, and H110)... even though another powder might be slightly advantageous over those three for a given use, I'll stick with what I have. It's really difficult to mistake H110 for Universal.

 

[vyse.04]

If you do a search on the forum, you will find the same pictures as mentioned in at least one other thread. If you're shooting factory ammo, I don't think there is much cause for concern. Yes mistakes can happen, but in that case you would probably be reimbursed. Shooting ammo out of specs could ruin any Ruger, S&W, Glock, etc.

 

[FALshootist]

Bottom line if you are old enough, you've seen all of them do this. Yes, S&W (my personal fav), Colt (running a close second) and even the "super strong" Ruger.

When revolvers were king, somebody just had to load them a little bit hotter or had to have that one extra beer while reloading.

Pick your favorite brand and its blown up.

Oh and this isn't limited to revolvers, every 1911 has probably seen a 1911 in 38 super pushed hard enough to make major that it let go. The same with 45s that had to have that throat opened up a little more, because then you know it will feed anything.

 

[FrankenMauser]

When revolvers were king, somebody just had to load them a little bit hotter or had to have that one extra beer while reloading.

There is only one lead abatement rule in my reloading room:
No Food or Drink!
...unless it's beer.
...or chips.
On nights where I am partaking of the adult beverages, I just size, decap, sort, or tumble brass (rather than dealing with powder and/or primers).

As others pointed out earlier... a double charge of many pistol powders will turn nearly any revolver into shrapnel. A triple charge is pretty much guaranteed to turn your beloved hand cannon into scrap metal.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"but it's also very easy to avoid with simple reloading discipline."

And when, for some unknown, unforseen reason, discipline breaks down...

BOOM.

It's the suspenders in a belt and suspenders approach to safe reloading.

 

[Doug Bowser]

Chinese firearms and ammo have not been imorted since 1999. Norinco tried to ship a load of ful auto AK's into the US as semi-auto. They lost their form 6 import license. The Canadians still import Chinese stuff.

At he time I never saw a .44 Mag ctg offered made in China. I have seen 3 ctgs blown up at one time with a double charge. If it were Bullseye, Unique or 2400 it would cause the damage indicated,

Here is a Schofield .45 Colt blown by a double charge. My buddy had a sick look on his face. These were light loaded 200 gr bullets with 6 gr Bullseye. I figger he has 12 gr Bullseye in the bad load. I have a collection of busted guns and some of the incidents were fatal.

Doug