Autos JAMMED by fine dust and dirt!

[Rob Pincus]

Recently here at the CJA, the whole class ran an obstacle course with our duty belts. One of the obstacles was a tunnel that we had to crawl through. The bottom of the tunnel was open, which put us scampering over a surface of pea-gravel, dirt and very fine dust.

The class is carrying a mish-mash of weapons and holsters.
Each person had their own version of "low-crawl" or "scamper" as they made their way through the tunnel.

A few rook's method combined with their weapon and holster rendered their weapon useless after the course.

SEVERAL Sigs (3 out of about 15) were jammed up so bad that they would not cycle by hand without serious effort. One of them took 45 minutes and several armorers to open and then it wouldn't close. It had to be disassembled, and the recently new gun looked like crap afterwards, specifically the barrel.

One Glock (out of about 10) was also so jammed up with "silt" that the owner could not rack the slide. After a couple minutes of tinkering, I got it to cycle reliably by hand.

Niether of the Berreta's (2) jammed in the least bit.

Again, nothing here is scientific, some people hardly got dirty themselves, let alone got their guns filled with crud. Soime people took less than 4 seconds inthe tunnel, others were in their long enough to eat lunch.

One could draw the conclusion that the tighter tolerances on the Sig were detrimental to the reliability and that the openness of the Berreta's slide made it harder to jam up. Similarly, the Glock was much easier to get back into action than the Sig.

Important Conclusion: BE CAREFUL ABOUT GETTING CRUD IN YOUR GUN.

(and yes, of course I had the fastest time on the obstacle course..... )



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-Essayons

 

[Glock Raider]

How did the Sig pass the US military trials and tie with the beretta,If it is so easy to jam up with dust&dirt makes me wonder what kind of trials military put them through.

 

[blades67]

Like Rob said, this was not a scientific test, only an observation from one class. What we DON'T know here is more important than what we DO know. Of the SIGs and Glocks that jammed, and not all of them jammed, did the operators have too much oil on their pistols? That one detail could be the whole of the problem. Remember Desert Storm? Many M9s jammed because of that one detail (many other weapon systems as well ).

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May your lead always hit center mass and your brass always land in your range bag.

~Blades~

 

[Rich Lucibella]

Try Sentry Solutions products for this. Specifically the SmoothKote dry lube.
Rich

 

[Greg Bell]

Guys,


Shoulda hada M8!!

 

[Long Path]

Consider also, that Sigs were the most common pistol carried, sounds like. What was the correlation between type of person and the type of pistol? Sigs are often issue-- was this the case for these guys? If so, then it is likely the tyros were carrying Sigs, and so you had inexperienced guys who know little of tactics carrying them in an inexperienced mans' holster, in an inexpert manner.

Guys who don't ever carry don't give much consideration to moving with their weapons, first time they do. How you cover your pistol or bear on it while scrambling is REALLY going to affect the amount of crud that gets into it!

 

[henryb]

A perfect example of why you do not want an excessive amount of oil and grease on your firearm. It would also seem that nobody has properly instructed these people to protect their weapon (a piece of equipment that their life depends on) with the amount of care and attention a duty weapon deserves. This is even more important when the weapon is exposed to less than ideal conditions like dirt, water, etc.

 

[The Ripper Man]

I had the same type of trouble a few years ago during a match. Only it showed up the second time I shot the course. The mags that were dropped the first time around gave me a fail to feed problem. What I found out was that the fine dust had gotten inside them and caused the follower to hang up, even to the point that it would stick and the live ammo would fall out. A good cleaning solved the problem. This was a Glock 21 and it was a very dry time of year. The ground had been leveled and this was a clay type of grit.

 

[4V50 Gary]

Well, thank God I have a rock. That sucker never jams.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

 

[George Hill]

Hmmm...
No mention of an HK jam.



There are many a gun out there... Some dont compromise.

But any gun can jam if you soak it and then get it dirty. Oils & Grease + Dirt & Dust = JAMAMATIC.

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"Supreme authority derives from a mandate from the masses. Not from some farsicle aquatic ceremony."

RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac

 

[longhair]

thank goodness for my ol' rattlin' loose fittin' 1911. i've abused it just to see how much it'll take, it can get really nasty and still run. now i know it ain't no LEO gun, and it won't shoot one hole groups, but it has always worked when i wanted it to....

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(O!!!!O)

 

[pete80]

They're autos! They are prone to jamming, if you don't like it, buy a revolver!

 

[461]

As A few have mentioned, you're dealing with inexperienced trainees here. People with the idea that if a little oil is good, then a lot is even better. Also you get the mentality that the weapon is immune to crud because of what they read in a gunzine and what they laid out for it, so they make no effort to favor their weapon side.

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TJS

 

[Destructo6]

When I was stationed in Okinawa, at the Marine's Northern Training Area(NTA), I got to see a lot of M9's and M-16's fail the Endurance Course. After getting through the Pit and Pond, you were lucky to get the slide (or bolt carrier, depending) to move more than a few milimeters. Most had to be soaked in clean water and dissasembled before working normally again.

 

[James K]

Hardly a scientific test. A lot depends on how and where the guns were carried and how the participants in this "fun run" went through. Some things to think about:

Open holster vs. closed
Carry gun in hand
Crawl with side opposite gun downward
Swing pistol belt around so gun is at back and crawl on belly, or vice versa

There is no perfect answer. I have seen both M1911/A1s and revolvers shut down by dust and dirt, although revolvers take it better. A problem is that some answers (like no lube) would be correct if doing "the crawl" were a daily occurrence, but might not be the best answer overall.

Jim

 

[David Wright]

Rob, what method of profiling do they teach out there? Korem? Who's teaching it?
Are they using "Tactics for Criminal Patrol" by Remsberg?
Just curious.

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David H. Wright
Bring this man a
goat and a bowl of fruit

 

[Rob Pincus]

I am kinda surprised at the response this topic drew.

I was just relaying an anecdote, not trying to make any points.. aside from "Keep your gun out of the dirt"

For the record:

Neither the sig nor the Glock that I eventually got unstuck had excessive oil, nor showed signs of having HAD excessive oil.

Also, there were no HKs in the class. (My department hasn;t gotten them in yet, so I was carrying a Glock, and I let the other guy from my Dept wear my gunbelt for the course.. twice through and my gun was not affected, so you have to count my Glock twice )

Yes, there were definitely differences in each persons style getting through the tunnel, as I noted. BUT, with some peoples method, even a US Army "saddle bag" (flap-over) type holster probably wouldn't have kept the gun completely clean.

It is hardly worth using this data to draw comparisons between the guns, In fact, I thought I had made a case for "it could've happened to any gun".

David,

The class has not covered Patrol Techniques yet, and "profiling" is a very bad word. (Unless you are talking about psychological analysis of recidivistic violent crime scenes, which I assure you they will not bother with during this basic school. It would cause siezures in about 50% of the class, and most of the Sheriff's Dept's couldn't squeeze an extra $35 / student so that they could have their own copy of the CCM.)


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-Essayons

 

[hksigwalther]

4V50 Gary,

How many grains is your rock? I was thinking of carrying a few concealed and need some info on how heavy they should be. I'm leaning towards smooth ones as I've heard the ones with the sharp corners and the randomly dimpled ones fly erratically. I'll be carrying Condition 0. °_°

- Ron V.

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[Peter M. Eick]

As a Geologist and Geophysicist, I can only comment that sharp rocks tend to be smaller in my collection while smoother ones tend to be bigger.

I will say that a good rock has been a very formitable weapon in the field where I am not allowed to carry by company rules. I have nailed many a snake and a few feral hogs that have tried to cause trouble due to lack of a gun.

I will give you the best advice I was ever given in the field:

"never pick up a sample (rock) going up the hill, it will still be there on the way back down!"

pete

 

[Glock Raider]

HKSIGWALTHER, the sharp edged rocks are like Black Talons, and will be available to law enforcement only soon so stock up now!! and legislation is now in the works to outlaw the carry of more than 10 rocks per pocket.