Attention Colt Junior/Astra Cub owners: I need 3 dimension

j-framer

New member
Hi everyone,

I desperately need the dimensions of the recoil spring/guide rod assembly from the Colt Junior/Astra Cub .25 pistols.

Specifically, I need:

1) The overall length. This would be from end-to-end of the guide rod, as the spring is captured by means of a shoulder on one end and a bushing on the other.

2) The diameter of the end of the guide rod that fits into the frame of the gun.

3) The diameter of the little bushing, or metal ring, on the opposite end (it sits in the bored-out hole in the bottom front of the slide.

Dimensions don't need to be extremely accurate, but should be maybe +/- .005". A decent pair of verniers, or certainly mics, will suffice.

If there are any owners out there with access to measuring tools, could you help me out?

Thank you.
 

WIL TERRY

New member
Say Now, That Is A Hell Of A Lot Of Work You Know....

SO, let's see if you qualify :
1. Which coast are you on ??
2. Do you live south of the S&W line ??
2A. Are you a dummorat or a REPUBLICAN ??
3. Which is you have, the ASTRA or the COLT ??
4. What happened to the rod you already have ??

I have both of those guns and not a single part will interchange including the magazines.
OH my, I just realized you asked about 25ACP versions of these guns and mine are both 22SHORTS.
SHIQ !!!
OH well I will post this anyways
 

Bill DeShivs

New member
There were a couple of versions of both the Colt and Astra guns.
Do you just need a new recoil spring assembly? If so, those are available.
 

j-framer

New member
Okay, let me explain.

I got myself into a bind due to my compulsive need to befriend old, obscure, neglected guns that I see at the backs of dealers’ shelves.

As I posted in a recent thread, I bought a little Spanish-made pocket pistol. It’s kind of beat up, but it seems functionally ok, except for one BIG problem: the recoil spring is so weak that the slide almost can’t go into battery on its own. It can, but just barely. And I’m not talking about chambering a round – I’m just talking about drawing the slide back with an empty magazine in the gun and letting it go. It closes, but extremely weakly. I feel there is obviously something wrong, because I’ve handled equivalent designs of Colt and FN manufacture and the spring tension is much, much greater. A world of difference.

Regarding the exact identity of the gun, well, I’ll tell you everything I know, which is very little. The pistol looks very much like a Colt 1908 .25. In fact, let me post the same photo I used in my other thread. See below. My gun looks like this:

7rsm-72.jpg


Picture is from: http://armsbid.com/ks7pix/7rsm-72.jpg

On the left side of the slide, there are the words:

AUTOMATICA ESPANOLA – PATs 62334 Y 67577

And below this, it reads:

“BUFALO” CAL 6,35

Below that are some intricate little marks, one of which looks like a sideways, bearded buffalo head with a big grin on its face. Seriously, it does.

On the right side of the slide, it says “MADE IN SPAIN” underneath the extractor. The serial number is on the right side of the frame, right where a Colt’s would be except on the opposite side.

Unlike a Colt 1908 .25, this gun has an actual, internal hammer, not a striker. And the manual safety is like a Colt Junior’s. But otherwise the resemblance is nearly complete.

So, back to the problem: No question about it, I need a recoil spring. In fact, I’ve determined that I may need the whole recoil spring/guide rod assembly, because I looked at the assembly when I took the gun apart (thank you, Bill DeShivs) and I can’t see how to get the spring off the guide rod. It’s captured on there somehow by a bushing or something up front that keeps the front of the spring from going past the end of the guide rod. Unlike the Colt 1908 and FN 1906, the spring is not permitted to relax to its full un-tensioned length when the slide is taken off. Picture the spring/rod assembly of a Glock and you’ll get the rough idea.

Okay, let me try to wrap this up:

Knowing that I’m looking for a recoil spring assembly for a Spanish “Bufalo” pocket pistol, I went to the gun parts companies’ websites and started looking. Soon, cold fear crept into my bones because I wasn’t finding any parts for this gun anywhere.

Heck, I actually don’t even know if I’m looking under the right headings on the sites, because “Bufalo” doesn’t seem like a manufacturer, but rather a model or something. “AUTOMATICA ESPANOLA” doesn’t seem like a manufacturer’s name.

So now, in desperation, I start wondering if maybe there exists a spring or a spring/rod assembly for a different but similar gun that would function in mine. I looked at some exploded views of guns on the website for Bob’s Gun Shop, which has zillions of parts, and I saw a few spring assembly sketches that looked somewhat like the one I need to replace. One of these was the assembly for a Colt Junior/Astra Cub. Another was for an Astra “Firecat” .25.

Of course, the sketches gave me no idea of dimensions, so that’s why I was asking for them – so that I could at least see if the guide rod was of such a size that it might work. I figured that the spring would likely be of roughly the proper strength, since all the units I looked at were for .25 pistols of very similar size.

I know, I’m really reaching here. This is the pass to which I brought myself by indulging in an impulse buy. But I am determined to get that gun working.

Guys, any suggestions are welcome.
 

j-framer

New member
I found a great picture of a disassembled Spanish pocket .25 in the online photo archive of some German pocket pistol collector. It shows you exactly what I'm talking about regarding the spring/rod assembly issue. Here's the link to his site:

http://www.vestpockets.bauli.at/

I found that I can't post his picture in this thread, so here's how to get to it:

1) Once on the site, click the "Archive" link on the upper left border of the page (third link down)

2) A long page will load that shows many pocket guns from many countries. Scroll down about 3/4 of the way to the bold-faced heading "SPANIEN/SPAIN" There will be three entries under this heading.

3) Click the thumbnail field-strip photo for the middle (2nd) gun.

He lists the gun as an "unknown Eibar-pattern" auto. I have seen the "Eibar region" of Spain mentioned continually when people mention the Spanish copies of the Colt and FN pocket pistol designs. Seems there were many little manufacturers pounding out zillions of these little copy-cat guns for the civilian population in the years after WWI.

Anyway, I direct your attention to the picture because this guy's gun, while not a "Bufalo", has main components that look exactly like my gun's components do.

Now you can see what I mean when I say that the spring is "captured" on the guide rod. It's a single unit.

Replacing this assembly is what I'm up against. Any ideas?
 

Bill DeShivs

New member
Colt/FN/Astra Firecat should work fine. The spring is probably not the captive type. The guide rod diameter is the only variable, but this dimension is not critical. If it is too big, you can turn it down. Too small should not be a problem. You can even make your own rod out of a nail.
 

j-framer

New member
Would you believe it, my hopes just now were raised and just as suddenly dashed. I was taking a better look at that German pocket pistol site I linked to above, and I noticed that the guy actually sells parts for some pistols - among them some of the Eibar-pattern Spanish autos! Talk about oblivious; I didn't even notice the "Parts" link on the page until a couple minutes ago.

There is photo of all the parts he has, and the spring/rod assembly is one of them!

I was ecstatic when I saw this, and immediately emailed him with my needs, only to have my email bounced back because his email address is not valid. Boy, talk about a quick reversal of fortune. First I think that the gods have smiled on me, next moment I'm back where I started.

Bill said:

Colt/FN/Astra Firecat should work fine.

You think so? I know that the assemblies for those guns are available, but at $25.00 or so each, I really can't afford to go by trial and error.

The spring is probably not the captive type.

I don't know if I used the term "captive" properly in a mechanical sense, but in the photo on that website did you see what I meant about how the spring is held, or contained, on the rod - instead of just being slid over one end to the rear shoulder of the guide rod and compressed during assembly? There is something holding the spring under tension at the front end of the rod. When I examined mine, it looked like a little ring of metal (you can see it in that photo). I don't know, maybe I'm missing something.

The guide rod diameter is the only variable, but this dimension is not critical. If it is too big, you can turn it down. Too small should not be a problem. You can even make your own rod out of a nail.

If I run out of other options I'll try that. I actually have access to CNC lathes and people who can make such things for me, so I'm not too worried about the rod. The spring is what has me worried, because I can't fashion one myself and I have no way of knowing what the original spring's specs were, because my current one is obviously badly fatigued. I can reverse-engineer and, if necessary, make, the rod, but the spring really scares me, because it no longer exists in its original form. I can't bring it to a company and say "I need one like this" because I want a good one with the original length and power, and I don't know what those were.
 

HisSoldier

New member
"I actually have access to CNC lathes and people who can make such things for me,"
There is no way I'd make one part using CNC technology unless I didn't have a manual lathe. It's like using a mainframe computer to do simple math when a $5 calculator will do as well.
 

j-framer

New member
HisSoldier said:

There is no way I'd make one part using CNC technology unless I didn't have a manual lathe. It's like using a mainframe computer to do simple math when a $5 calculator will do as well.

I don't agree with the analogy. Making one part on a Mazak is just as quick and easy as doing it on a manual lathe. For that part, the simple conversational program would take less than five minutes for an experienced machinist to write. Very few operations, no ID work to speak of. Just rough and finish. You would need the center for that long, thin part, of course.

And the machines (at least the ones I'm used to) can be used in manual mode as well, if desired. They don't have to be programmed.

And, as a matter of fact, I do own manual lathes, but I don't have three-phase power to my home and they're not set up for use.

The CNCs I simply have access to, don't own. I'm not that rich. :)
 

j-framer

New member
Bill said:

Have you tried http://www.gun-parts.com/index.html/ for springs? They don't list your gun, but do list several similar guns.

Yes, in fact, they were my first stop. The only part I found for the actual Bufalo was a magazine - I think it was for my gun (they spelt it "Buffalo", but the caliber and capacity were correct).

As far as springs and/or assemblies went, I saw lots listed for various .25 autos. But I have no information about compatability with my gun. In many cases, there aren't even schematics or exploded views of the guns in question. Even if there were, how do I know whether they will fit? At the prices listed on that site, I could blow through many times the price of the gun just getting and trying different springs. Trial and error is not an option.

Naturally, I did try calling them. I kid you not, I tried calling them at least 10 times yesterday (Friday), throughout the course of the day. I got a busy signal each time. It's crazy; why can't they simply take the calls and then have people hold "for the next available associate", etc.? On their site, it says: "Please be patient, we are snowed under with phone calls and emails." Well, I can't be patient if I can't even get on the line to wait!

Anyway, I'll try calling again Monday. But the real solution, I think, lies in getting ahold of that German guy who runs the pocket pistol site. In that case, I actually saw the identical-looking part numbered for sale in his exploded photo. What a devastating thing that he seems to have dropped off the map and let his contact info get out of date.

Bill, thanks for your continued help and interest.
 

Bill DeShivs

New member
Your "Bufalo" was made between 1919-1925. It was made by Gabilondo y Cia
(Llama.) The gun is pretty much a direct copy of the FN 1906.
I would think a spring for the FN (Browning) would work just fine.
If you have a gunsmith nearby, it may be worth a trip there.
 

j-framer

New member
Your "Bufalo" was made between 1919-1925. It was made by Gabilondo y Cia
(Llama.)

How did you come by these specifics?

The gun is pretty much a direct copy of the FN 1906.
I would think a spring for the FN (Browning) would work just fine.
If you have a gunsmith nearby, it may be worth a trip there.

Actually, before starting this thread, I tried that (I have an FN 1906 that I also bought recently after that other thread in which I asked about the Colt Junior vs. FN 1906). No go - the FN's spring is much bigger in diameter. Like you, I thought that, in a gun that seems so similar to the FN design, the springs should be very similar if not exactly the same between all these little guns, but it seems not to be the case. There's no question about it; neither an FN spring nor a Colt spring (those two do seem to be exactly alike) will do the job here.

Anyway, Bill, thanks once more for your interest. I'll try this coming week to get hold of Bob's Gun Shop (fat chance :() and also hope that the German guy updates his email.
 
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