At what point is it worth their life/killing over chickens

Byron Quick

Staff In Memoriam
I've looked over both threads. Some good points raised in both-pro and con.
Here's my view.
My defintion of reasonable fear of life and limb. I've had three serious concussions. The worst was when I was a young teenager. It was given to me by a thirteen year old boy with his bare fist. If I am attacked by an unarmed person I will try to escape...I'll run like a rabbit. If they catch me and try to beat me, I will shoot them until they stop trying to beat me. The effects of concussions are cumulative. My legs already jump all over the place when I sleep and sometimes when I wake up I can't move for awhile.

What, you say, if your attacker is a young teenager?...read above. Just because he's young does not give him special dispensation to threaten my life and health. Neither does his gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, or national origin.

Shooting over property crimes is not legal in the state where I live so I shall not do so. But consider the morality of such. My property can be replaced, right? Wrong, I can be compensated or I can work to buy more of the same. But how did I get the property in the first place? I worked for it. That is, I traded an irreplaceable part of my life for the money used to buy the property. That part of my life can never be replaced. It is gone beyond recall.

Say you decide to steal something that I worked for two weeks to purchase. You should be allowed to steal two weeks of my life? Just because you leave me alive and healthy? If you decided to take the last two weeks of my life, we would all (except for some of the lurkers) agree that I would be justified in using deadly force to keep it. But because it's "only property", some think a different morality applies. It does not. I traded life itself for that property.

The only guns my father ever had were stolen from me by thieves. Do you think you can replace them? Do you? You can't. The insurance company can't. The government can't.
 

griz

New member
I’m tempted to stay out of this one but maybe if I only jump in the shallow end….
I think the question When is it worth their life? is misleading. If somebody comes up to me and says "give me all your money", I think it’s reasonable to interpret that as "give me all your money or else" , in other words, a threat against me. How I chose to respond to this threat should be independent of how much money I have in my pocket.
As for a property crime like stealing chickens, I agree it is something I worked for but it’s not a threat against my person and I’m not going to kill somebody, of any age, over a chicken.
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
On the 5PM news on San Antonio's channel 5, they said the thief stole five "fighting roosters" valued at $600 each.

$3,000.00
 

Byron Quick

Staff In Memoriam
That's an easy stand to take in an affluent society. But suppose that chicken was the only meat in sight for your child over the foreseeable future-what then?

I know a man who got tired of being burglarized. He surrounded his entire property with an eight foot cyclone fence with more fence buried down into the ground. There's only two ways in from the ground: cut the fence/lock or tunnel. He's put big signs up on the fence every forty or fifty feet around the entire circumference that read: TRESPASSERS WILL BE SHOT.

Now I know the man well, bought gas for my business from him for ten years. If something possesses me to cut through his fence, I fully expect him to say,"Byron, what are you doing here?"...right before he shoots me dead.

And that is exactly what I would deserve
 

kjm

New member
Amen Spartacus. I'd damned sure kill a man trying to steal my $600.00 roosters. I don't hesitate to kill neighbor cats and dogs who get after my chickens, and they have a biological urge to kill chickens. The amount of money is immaterial. I have a $600.00 dog, and if someone tried to do her in, I probably wouldn't hesitate to shoot them (unless she ate them first). I just wish we could catch the cattle and horse theives in the state and do them in too.

Chicken theives?
 
I was going to keep out of this segment of the discussion, as my views on this subject should be well known by now, but just wait one damn second...

Fighting roosters?

Isn't cock fighting illegal in Texas, and isn't the raising of the birds with the intention of fighting them illegal, as well?

If this man were raising the roosters with the intention of entering them into fights, or selling them knowing that they would be entered into fights, that seems to fit the definition of conspiring to commit a crime.

If he did intend to fight the birds, which again I believe is illegal, I don't know of a single state in the US in which it is legal to protect the proceeds or accoutrements (sp?) of an illegal activity with deadly force.
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
Mike,
On the other thread, I believe someone mentioned it is not illegal to raise fighting roosters for use in Mexico.

Me? I dunno... don't care about such fights.
 

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
I'd like to note a practical consideration: the perp shot was an intruder and was not there by accident. It is not practical to question intruders as to their motives even if the answers could be trusted.

If a goblin is in my home when it shouldn't be in my home, I shall examine its remains. Anything less would be unreasonable luck for the goblin. I say so when I haven't a family to protect: my response to intruders would become rather more severe if others depend on me for safety (though I may well end up doing better by hiding behind my wife if she'll be who I think she will be :)).

http://www.olegvolk.net/newphotos/lifesavers/goblins.jpg

Oleg
 

Battler

New member
Maybe he just likes collecting fighting chickens the same way (many of us) like to collect "fighting" guns :)


BTW: Spartacus: Good to see some objectivism/rationality injected into this.

On principle, those chickens DID represent a piece of his life that are his (until such time as he trades them for a piece of someone else's, for mutual benefit, or disposes of them/consumes them in his own way).
 

LoneStranger

New member
Spartacus;
In a previous post I brought up the idea that YOU trade your life for your physical possessions. I also pointed out that when someone questions your preserving what you have traded your life for you must ask them why THEY put more value in the life of a criminal than they do in yours?
Fortunately I have yet to recieve a good answer!
 

TexasVet

New member
Why is everyone missing the point?

The question is NOT what property I place a value on worth a life. That decision has ALREADY been made by the robber, burglar, mugger, whatever. HE decided that my chickens, money, car, watch, whatever were worth risking his life for. I, or you, do not make that decision. It has already been made. The only decision we make is whether to put our lives at risk in the hopes that they will be nice and let us live (as witnesses, less and less likely all the time) or to fight like rational human beings..
 

Byron Quick

Staff In Memoriam
First let me make a disclaimer: I am interested in exploring and discussing views on what actions are moral in this thread...not in flaming my brothers and sisters in arms. My primary aim is not legalities.


Mike,

"conspiracy to commit a crime"

Just a quick question-have you been paying attention to the way state and federal prosecutors are using the conspiracy laws? If not, you should. I've seen conspiracy cases where every person but one was acquitted...reckon they conspired with themselves. Oh, I forgot the weasel words: unindicted co-conspirators. Yeah, that's the ticket. The conspiracy laws were brought into being for one purpose. To allow prosecutors to win a case when there is insufficient evidence to convict of a real crime. The same as the RICO laws and the property forfeiture laws. And like these, the conspiracy laws are an offense to the liberty of each of us.
 

Battleaxe

New member
chickens?

Amen Spartacus. I'd damned sure kill a man trying to steal my $600.00 roosters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Call a lawyer and ask how much to represent you through a grand jury hearing. You won't like the math.
 
Spartacus,

How the authorities are USING conspiracy and RICO to construct cases is immaterial.

How the homeowner was keeping, using, and intending to use the chickes IS material.
 

johninaustin

New member
clarification

Just for thought. Raising roosters for cockfights down here is BIG TIME stuff. Cockfighting is legal in both Mexico and Lousiana. Only fighting is illegal in Texas, you can raise them all you want. The 600$ per rooster is actually a little misleading. That amount does not count the winnings from said rooster. A good fighter might bring in 50,000$ over it's lifetime, in bets and breeding fees. It would be no different than stealing greyhounds or a racing horse.
 

beemerb

Moderator
texas vet;
I have tried to make the same point a number of time here and have gotten the same response as you have,nothing.
The BG made the choice that what he wanted to steal is worth his life not the person who is protecting his property.I personaly think it is a cut and dried area.
The other point I have tried to make is what the property is worth depends onhow much money you have.I am living on SS so it doesn't take much of a theft to creat a great hardship on me.
 

Byron Quick

Staff In Memoriam
Battleaxe,

I posted that using deadly force to protect property is not legal in my state and that I would not do so. I also posted that I was primarily interested in discussing various points of view from a moral standpoint not a legal standpoint. I am more interested in seeing people's rationales for their views and the process whereby they derived that view. It cost me over five thousand dollars a couple of years ago to settle a charge of carrying a firearm without government permission. I think I can extrapolate how much a good lawyer would charge here in Georgia if I shot someone over my chickens.

Mike,

That was an aside to the theme of this thread. As it is apparently not illegal to raise cocks for fighting in Texas, the conspiracy idea is not material to the thread, either. However, if you have not done so already, pay attention to conspiracy cases. It's enough to make you sick. Or bribery cases for that matter. See how often someone is convicted of accepting a bribe while the person accused of bribing him is acquitted or vice versa. Seems to me that there should be linkage in these types of cases,i.e., for a conspiracy conviction to stand there must be conviction of at least two people charged...for a bribery conviction to stand-both the briber and the bribe taker must be convicted. Balance in the scales of justice.
 
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