Armor Piercing Ammunition (NOW, with Pictures!)

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Nytelyte

New member
What is the definition of Armor Piercing? I inquire because I recently purchased a 1945 Isk M-44. Its a blast, literally, to shoot. I also picked up the 440 rnd 1980s manufacuture milsurp ammo. While shooting, I have noticed that there are small steel, or at least ferrous, pieces that are in the backstop, and sure enough, upon dissection of the bullet heads with a dremel, the copper jacket is surrounding a thin lead sleeve that is surrounding a steel core. I have been told that the steel core makes this armor piercing ammunition, but I have also been told that 3rd world country ammunition has that because getting large quantities of lead to make into bullets is more expensive than pot metal iron. I went over to my dad's house and checked his as well, different make & vintage ammo, magnet will still stick to the bullet head. Any thoughts? :confused:

Thanks in advance,
 
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SOSARMS

New member
Don't know if this is any help , but here goes....... I have purchased a lot of rounds of armor piercing ammo, military issue, 308 and others......
We wanted to see what damage the round would do to thick metal and looked for some scrap steel...We found a generator field winding assembly that was scrapped due to an open. This is a circle of steel outer shell with a copper winding inside...kinda like a steel doughnut... We shot it at short range and looked for the damage...The bullet penetrated the outer steel case, through the first copper winding, then stopped before exiting the other side copper winding. Wha we found was a small steel "bullet" shaped piece laying in the inside core. Was sharp pointed, slender and boattailed, and Rockwell harder than hell.....was the core of the AP round......NOT one mark on it from impact...period !!! Since it was hard i decided to useit as a center punch for my fab work. Tip snapped off as if it was a pencil lead dropped on the floor.....Was kinda neet though..!!
 
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Nytelyte

New member
Pics

Here are some pics]

Cartrige next to some recovered cores
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/Phalanx06/RecoveredCores.jpg
Longways cross section of the bullet *be kind, I did it with a dremel*
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/Phalanx06/PostCrosssection.jpg
2 bullets side by side.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/Phalanx06/2bullets.jpg

The head stamp has "84" @ 12oclock and "21" @ 6oclock upside down. The bullets are 7.62 X 54R 1980's Czech Light Ball, green spam can and the like.
 
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rem33

Moderator
SOS;
I have tip I use as a punch from Korea era armor piercing 30-06, black bullet tips if i remember right. A uncle gave them to me 25 years ago or so. I have only shot 3 or 4, but the one I use as a punch went thru a 1 inch thick piece of cold rolled steel and on thru a 1/4 inch piece of angle iron. Came to rest against a granite rock we had the steel in front of. Not sure how much it will go thru as that was all we had with us. makes a great punch if held with pliers.
 
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BillCA

New member
Steel core bullets typically look something like the photos that Nytelyte posted. If the bullet itself isn't a gilding metal jacket over a steel core then there is typically a lead nose behind which is a steel core.

If you dissect some ammo, you'll find a lead bullet with what looks like an engraving tool "tip" buried inside. This material may have a very pointed tip that will pass through light (vehicle) armor. These are tungsten cores. Never attempt to dissect one with a band saw (or Dremel!) though, unless you want to be called "Lefty". :eek:
 
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Nytelyte

New member
Thanks Odd Job, thats perfect. So I don't have to worry about the AP, I was concerned because my range has a rule against it, and I would rather not shoot it even if no one would ever know.
BillCa, I looked up the cross section of the Tungsten ap rounds, just out of curiosity, why would cross sectioning one be dangerous? *not going to try, just wonder*
 
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BillCA

New member
Trying to cut a cross section of a tungsten round with, say a band saw, may cause the band saw to break the blade or it may catch on the hard tungsten and cause the bullet to take about three laps around the garage at eyeball height.

Years ago, a friend picked up some mil-surp 7.62 ammo and tried to section one in the machine shop he worked in. It snapped the blade in spectacular fashion when he hit the hardened tungsten core.
 
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Jim Watson

New member
Ny, You had it right in your first post.

Some steel-cored bullets are intended as armor piercing. The steel is hardened and the core point is ground at an angle to maximize penetration. US .30-06 even has a bit of a boattail angle on the base of the core so as to reduce the risk of the penetrator whipping out of line when not striking at a 90 degree angle.

Some steel-cored bullets are made to conserve lead which is a strategic metal, especially if it is not produced in the manufacturing country. The cores are typically mild steel, screw machine turned to fit in the jacket without much consideration of penetration. They still do pretty well against any target other than true armor plate.

Which makes me wonder if your range management can tell the difference between a real AP or Slobbovian Surplus cheapoball.

There is a third class of bullet, not much mentioned any more, the Semi-Armor Piercing. The steel nose insert of SS109/M855 would have put it in that class at one time.
 
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SOSARMS

New member
AP tip after fire............

We recovered this AP tip after it was shot through a generator field winding, and was laying in the interior.......It was in perfect condition until i tried to use it as a center punch, hence , the slightly blunt tip.........
 

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rem33

Moderator
Went and dug out the armor tips I saved. Look just like those pictured above except they both broke in two, about halfway back from the tip, tips are still almost needle sharp. Would easily drill into your skin twisting by hand with slight pressure. they were .30 caliber so .308 but, calipers show .245 now after piercing 1 1/4 inch of steel and coming to rest against granite.
 
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aimsqueeze

New member
AP's and other oddities

Most CF bullet types will penetrate 3/4" and under sheet steel either partially (splash crater) or completely through. When I was a chap my granddad left me a pre-64 mod.70 '06. He had two Maxwell House coffee cans full of black tip AP's that I used at our range. Oh how I wish I had known! They were really accurate and I loved shooting that gun. There's a reason they call it the Rifleman's Rifle. I dissected a couple and tried to cut one with a hack saw, broke one blade and took the teeth right off the other. Shot an old junk 49 Plymouth and it would punch right through from trunk to grill. Many moons later I decided to show our two sons how powerful an '06 is vs other .30 cals. and other calibers we have. We are fortunate to have a little land and I have a range behind our house. (Most of my neighbors don't like me and wonder if I'll ever run out of ammo) I've got 3/8", 1/2", 3/4" plate, several car hoods and a 40" dia. trunk section of an ash tree(really hard, stops a .45 230 on the surface or just under) I took several cardboard boxes packed with old magazines and encyclopedias and wet them. We shot them at various ranges with 5.56's, 7.62x39's, .30-30's, .270 130 and 140 grains, .50 M/L's both lead and jacketed sabots. Unfailingly all rounds stopped or tumbled from 2" to 7", but they stopped. Then I shot them from 65 yrds.(dis. to our deck) with my '06 using 150 and 165 Remington and Win. loads and a couple of 180's. All but one completely penetrated each box(no boxes or books were reused, each one was fresh) through an 82 Buick Wagon's hood or the 1/2" plate and stopped deep in the backstop dirt. The looks on their faces was priceless. I told them to always remember there wasn't anything that walks North America and few things on Earth that an '06 won't put down. While it wouldn't be my first choice for a griz or moose, if it was all I had in my hand and I got charged, I wouldn't be afraid of using it. It's world wide known, probably anywhere you go you can get ammo, it's probably got more of a wide range of weights and load data than any other caliber. In the right gun and hands it's deadly accurate. Now if I can just find that record book squirrell.;)
 
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FirstFreedom

Moderator
The definition of whether certain ammo is armor-piercing depends on the thickness, material, and integrity of the armor. I'd say yes, it'll punch right through SBA, and most plate steel too, up to at least 3/8th", unless it's super-hardened.

Or are you talking legality? Who cares - screw the unconst. laws. We have a duty to disobey that which is contrary to the supreme law of the land, the U.S. Constitution.
 
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Poodleshooter

New member
I went over to my dad's house and checked his as well, different make & vintage ammo, magnet will still stick to the bullet head.
Click to expand...
Magnets don't necessarily tell you if it has a steel core or not. A lot of foreign and US military ammo has steel jackets with a lead core. Magnets stick to them,but they won't penetrate any more than an otherwise identical copper jacketed lead cored bullet.
Many range owners haven't figured this out,and aren't willing to risk it,so the magnet remains a popular diagnostic tool for those who distrust surplus ammo.
 
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Blammer

New member
Steel Core is banned on some ranges because of...

FIRE HAZARD! = If the steel core is exposed striking a rockey berm, the ricocheting bullet fragments may spark/cause fire in dry surroundings... like the California foothills in the summer:( :eek:
There have been enough instances for rangemasters to get very grumpy with anything that a magnet will stick to.... there dosen't have to be a ferrous metal core to attract a magnet, Cupronickle gilding metal has magnetic properties as well = which is why I got in a yelling match with a rangeyog with a magnet pronouncing my Swedish 6.5x55 milsurp ammo "AP!" = took a letter to the membership prez to straighten that one out.:rolleyes:
 
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Nytelyte

New member
"Magnets don't necessarily tell you if it has a steel core or not. A lot of foreign and US military ammo has steel jackets with a lead core. Magnets stick to them,but they won't penetrate any more than an otherwise identical copper jacketed lead cored bullet."

Thats why I cross sectioned the one. I was expecting to see what I saw, thin copper and thin lead over a steel core. I knew this existed and wanted to eliminate the possibility.
As far as legality goes, my range does not want us shooting AP due to penetration of the backstop and whatnot. As I very much enjoy the range and more maint = more expensive fees, I have no problems complying with that.
FirstFreedom, what is SBA?
 
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