Arguements Needed Against Smart Guns

[Green Republican]

Hope no one minds, but I need to respond today in a public forum to a major Smart Gun Bill advocate. If possible, please respond with compelling and informative rebuttals that the uninformed public can understand. Thanks muchos.
I trudge forward.

 

[Oleg Volk]

1. Mandating features violates individual freedom.
2. The technology doesn't work reliably...and if it ever does, still should not be madated due to #1.

 

[shootist2121]

My first concern IF SMART GUNS truly end up on the market place, which will happen.

!. Reliability. The firearm must endure some form of abuse and keep firing. If the smart technology goes south the manufacturer must be liable. Period.

2. The smart technology must be programmable for mutlipersonal use. One gun hoouse hold.

3. The smart technology must not be capable of being defeated by any kind of RF transmistions or interferance. (Bad guy with some kind of transmitter to deactivate you gun leaving his stiull good.) You get the piocture.

4. It one more thing to keep a firearm out of those peoples hand who most likely will need it. The poor working stiff who wants something for home defense. Who isn't making much more than mim. and isn't intent on shooting as a hobby.

Just my two cents. Good luck on this one. I really figure if they become massively the standard. than some fool in a garage some where will figure out how to defeat it, or disable it for good or bad. Just like cable descramblers, etc.

 

[shootist2121]

God!
Even after a quick review, my spelling...LOL

Got to stop answering stuff this early in the morning. Sorry about that.

 

[Old Fuff]

Smart gun technology is sort of like the electric car. Some prototypes have been made and a few experimental models are being tested, but no one has anything that’s ready for production. You can’t sell something that hasn’t been developed, especially with something that might be used in an emergency. What if someone tricked-out fire extinguishers to the point that they might, or might not work?

So far all the proposals and laws that have been made or enacted specifically exempt the police and military. Why? Because none of them want it, and in fact are very opposed to the whole idea so far as they are concerned.

Many anti-gun advocates are pushing “smart guns” because they see it as a way to eventually prohibit civilian (emphasize “civilian”) ownership of what they’ll probably call “dumb guns” such as we have now. The plan is to eliminate ordinary guns such as we have now and replace them with much fewer, and much more expensive “smart guns.”

Firearm opponents seldom know very much about guns and rely on emotional arguments. “If this will save lives …” (It is more likely to cost lives – disarming potential victims isn’t likely to save lives, anymore then a gun that doesn’t work at a critical time.) “It’s for the children …” (There are better ways to secure firearms against children.) “This is a reasonable, common sense solution …” (Not if it involves putting unperfected technology on emergency devices.) and so on.

Good luck.

 

[Greg L]

So far all the proposals and laws that have been made or enacted specifically exempt the police and military. Why? Because none of them want it, and in fact are very opposed to the whole idea so far as they are concerned.

Also in most places (NJ?) the governmant that mandates it has written into the law that they cannot be sued if something goes wrong. Hmmm, agents of the state are exempt from using this technology and the state can't be held liable if something goes wrong with yours after forcing you to use it. Sorry, it just doesn't pass the smell test.

Greg

 

[LawDog]

Have you ever had cell phone technology not work when you needed it?

Have you ever had your computer not work when you needed it?

Ever had a PDA go left on you?

The same technology that fails in your cell phone and your computers will be in the 'smart' guns.

Only, when you need the 'smart' gun to work, getting the Blue Screen of Death may not be a metaphor.

And hitting the 're-start' button on a 'smart' gun (IF anyone puts a 're-start' button on a 'smart' gun), may require a bit more time than the emergency you are facing may allow you.

Batteries die. Batteries don't like extreme temperature changes. Memory chips don't like recoil; neither do breadboards.

'Smart' guns are a whole bunch of expensive parts looking for an owner to let down.

LawDog

 

[griz]

Robber: "give me all your money"

Smart gun owner: "please wait while I reboot my self defense tool".

Seriously, it seems ludicrous to debate the merits of nonexistent technology. It’s as if someone was asking about the pros and cons of arson proof gasoline cans.

 

[trapshooter]

'Smart' guns aren't.

They are a violation of Murphy's Law.

If you add more parts, you increase the probability that something will break. Ipso facto.

One of Murphy's corollaries, things will go wrong at the worst possible time. 'Smart' guns = dumb logic.

 

[Hard_Case]

If possible, please respond with compelling and informative rebuttals that the uninformed public can understand. Thanks muchos. I trudge forward.

Having listened to the debates by the NJ legislature, and being in a place where it is going to eventually be mandated, I can say this.....

The entire political aspect of smart guns revolve completely around one basic tenet: preventing a gun from firing. Even though the NJT Personalized Weapons Program strongly pressed for consideration of the liability issues, the politicians ignored them. They are not at all concerned that the 'smart guns' fire when they need to fire (ie - in a self defense shooting)....ANY prevention of a firearm working is a success. In fact, it seems there is more of a push to get this technology on the market than there is to make sure it does not compromise the performance of the firearm in question.

The entire structure of the legislation gives TREMENDOUS control over firearms in this state to ONE PERSON...the AG. Imagine if, say, the president of the DOT had sole (zero oversight, zero possibility of legal contestation) discretion over what car may or may not be sold. There are no stringent definitions of regulations or requirements. They way it is done is that the AG and ONLY the AG can determine whether or not a firearm complies. It's the same thing as F-Troop logic.

Lastly, it is a BLATANT effort by the government to influence and control technological development. Simply put, the legislators are once again trying to use the law to push companies to spend money and develop technology that the GOVERNMENT wants....not the consumer, and not the company...

 

[jimpeel]

Smart guns and Trojan horses

I have posted this several times here at TFL I originally posted it at http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99632 . These are all the arguments you need on this subject.

Remember, smart gun technology is a Trojan horse -- wherein the defects which are not currently inherent to guns, and never have been found to exist in court, will be designed in -- and the manufacturers will be sued into oblivion.

A list of the type of defects follows, courtesy of a poster, whose name I don't remember, back when I used to hang out at the old Time Magazine Pathfinder boards:

On Smart guns

Actually - you might wish to consider the real world when you talk about electronically personalized firearms, you will end up with specifications something like this ----

Must be able to be used with either hand

Must be able to be used with gloves

Must allow others to be permitted to use the firearm

Must not significantly increase weight or size of firearm

Must have 100% reliable power supply (if needed)

Must have extremely low rates of false negatives and false positives

Must not be affected by temperature, dirt, precipitation, oils, solvents, or perspiration

Must not be affected by calluses, abrasions, lacerations, or other tissue damage or variations

Must not work simply because owner is in close proximity to firearm when another person is using it

Must not be simple to cheat or remove

A temperature range requirement ( -50F to +150F).

Must not be disabled -
by immersion in water.
by exposure to and operation during inclement weather.
by proximity to magnetic fields such as those in industrial facilities.
by proximity to microwave sources such as transmission towers and ovens.
by proximity to radio and TV broadcast towers. (or the radio in LEO vehicles)
by proximity to AC and DC magnetic fields under high voltage transmission lines.
by NMP

Must complete analysis and be in "go" mode in a maximum of 0.25 seconds after application of control digit.

Must be in "no-go" mode in a maximum of 0.1 seconds after control digit is removed.

How much wiggle are we going to allow the control digit to have on the sensor pad before this contraption says that is not the correct control digit?

Must be serviceable at local firearms dealer or armorer. Requirement to return to factory and have authorized user at factory is unacceptable.

What is the useful life of the electronic components that we are putting into this service? Are we going to measure service life by hours energized, or by shots fired, what? Should we
consider the service life to be longer if installed in a pistol chambered for 9mmX19mm than we would for installation in a pistol chambered for .45ACP? What happens if we put these
electronic components in a Contender chambered for .45/70 Gov't? Must be capable of absorbing without failing the impact loading from a minimum of 10,000 shots.

 

[pdmoderator]

We don't know the technology that "smart" guns will be based on. What if a criminal could take a "smart" gun and turn it into a machine gun by changing the chip?

Could happen.

- pdmoderator

 

[Green Republican]

Thanks. I'll post the results of your efforts when published. This may seem rediculous to many (mainly because it is), but it seems (unless I'm just a delusional paranoid) that our state government is paving the way for terrorism or something. That might have been wrong to say, but they're completely out of control.

 

[Master Blaster]

Best argument:

The police and the military are the experts on Firearms!
Police and the military stake their lives on the reliability of their firearms, Civilians who own fiorearms need to be able to expect the same reliability from their firearm.

Anyone here care to disagree with that?

The police and the military say they are unreliable and will not use them.

When the police and the military are willing to replace all of their standard guns with smart guns then We can consider it a viable technology.


Fool proof designs always result in the development of a better Fool. The reliance on any mechanical safety system will increase the number of accidents.

 

[tyme]

"Must be able to be used with gloves"

I can't think of any way that could ever work with a fingerprint-reading type "smart gun."

 

[madkiwi]

To paraphrase some of the postings already made-

When you really need a gun, it has to work reliably. If it won't because:
The batteries are dead
The decoder ring is in another room
A 10c part fails
Your hands are too sweaty/oily/dirty/bloody
You are not the "authorized" user
It is too complicated to use in a panic situation
You can't afford one

- then you or your family might die.

That is all you need to say.

In Feb 2000 here in San Francisco an old African-American gentleman shot and killed an intruder in his home. It was ruled justifiable homocide, so he was spared prosecution (or is that persecution?). The fascinating part is that he used a revolver he purchased sometime in the 1950's, fired a few times (He thought the last time was in the 1970's) It was loaded and under his bed. It hadn't been fired, cleaned or maintained in nearly 30 years. The gun and ammo worked when it had to. Could you imagine ANY iteration of proposed "smart-gun" technology that will work 3 decades later without maintenance?
www.rense.com/politics6/51.htm

madkiwi

 

[pdmoderator]

Madkiwi: Didja notice...

The intruder, Michael Moore, 49, was pronounced dead a short time after the shooting at San Francisco General Hospital with a gunshot wound in his upper chest.

Guess he bowled a gutterball for Columbine.

- pdmoderator

 

[bbrins]

With all of the electrical components being jolted by recoil, something is bound to fail eventually. This will open doors for numerous lawsuits and that would be the end for a good part of the gun industry.

I feel sorry for the poor schmuck that puchases a "smart gun" and loads it and throws it in a drawer, five years down the road he will really need it and it won't work, dead batteries, dead victim.

 

[STAGE 2]

Just a thought from a philosophy student. Having been in countless debates over very controversial issues (although never one on gun rights which makes me wonder if professors know that their position is faulty but just dont want it publicly shown) by far the best tactic you can employ is forcing him to provide the burden of proof. How do you do this. Agree with him.

Yes thats right... I said agree with him. Before you tell me what I can go do with my advice lemme explain. As it stands now he is most likely going to appeal to the emotion of the audience with something like, "this is only going to save lives and who doesnt want that" which I need not remind you is a logical fallacy. Nevertheless this puts you on the defensive. Defensive.. bad.

What you need to do, in my humble opinion, is completely agree with him. Say that there is nothing wrong with smart gun technology and in fact you think it is a wonderful idea (providing it works). However... the government does not have the right to prohibit manufacturers to continue producing their current firearms. Why... because the government has no right to tell individuals how to best protect themselves or their family. Here is where you insert all the stuff about why this is in reality...crap

What you have just done is shifted the argument from being, "why shouldnt we have smart gun tech" to "why the government has the right to tell me how I should run my life, and what private companies are allowed to do". I'm willing to bet that there are very few in the audience who are gonna agree to that.

Whatever you decide to do I wish you luck and please report back so we all know how it goes.

 

[TexasVet]

Batteries. Ever used a flashlight at zero degrees or lower? How long did the batteries last? If they worked at all.