Are these ballistics real?

[Blondie.357]

Does anyone know if these numbers are for real or are they exaggerated? This is way more powerful than most other brands I am familiar with, seems to good to be true.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=10&products_id=338

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=search_list&s[search]=&s[title]=Y&s[short_desc]=Y&s[full_desc]=Y&s[sku]=Y&s[match]=all&s[cid]=20

 

[spacecoast]

Fiocchi has some .357s that are about the same.

 

[James K]

Someone once said of a maker of high velocity rifles and ammunition that he got his velocity figures the old fashioned way - he ran pressures way up, then he lied.

Jim

 

[ice monkey]

Though not .357, I have bought Buffalo Bore in .380acp – their reported velocities were realized out of my pistol. Therefore, I can’t see why it wouldn’t be the same in .357.

There’s no reason why those velocities couldn’t exist, most .357 ammo these days is not loaded to their full potential, due to the recoil/weakly built revolvers. That’s what I have heard any way!

Note however, if you click on the ammo on Buffalo Bores site – they’ll tell you exact velocity per barrel length. 1600 to 1800 fps is out of an 18.5” barrel.

 

[JohnKSa]

Back before chronographs came into public use, ammunition manufactures used to inflate their velocity claims.

Now chronographs are inexpensive and common and advertised ammunition velocities are usually pretty close to reality.

On the other hand, not many people have pressure testing equipment available to them...

I called Hornady awhile back and asked them why they loaded their 10mm lighter than some of the other manufacturers out there. Remember that Hornady has made a name for themselves marketing light magnum rifle ammunition--they definitely understand the value in providing their customers the option to buy something with a bit more power. The response I got was that they were loading their 10mm ammunition as hot as they could and still stay within SAAMI specifications.

Just something to think about.

 

[Blondie.357]

Note however, if you click on the ammo on Buffalo Bores site – they’ll tell you exact velocity per barrel length. 1600 to 1800 fps is out of an 18.5” barrel.

Those numbers are out of a 6 inch barrel. Out of an 18 inchers its over 2200 fps for 125 grain and 1800+ with 180 grain.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=103

 

[Old Grump]

357 sig did it first in a 40 MM case so I don't see why it couldn't be done in a full sized 357 mag case. Have to agree on the probable exaggeration though. the only firearms company I know who doesn't exaggerate their velocity numbers is Weatherby.

 

[Blondie.357]

the only firearms company I know who doesn't exaggerate their velocity numbers is Weatherby

How do you know that?

 

[zinj]

Yeah, those are for real; there is a reason that S&W originally chambered the .357 in the N-Frame, not a K-Frame. Domestic manufacturers have downloaded the .357 over the years in deference to weaker actions such as the Magnum K-Frames, but probably just as much that the original high-end .357s can be quite a handful. As said above, Fiocchi and S&B still make cartridges loaded to the old specification. To give some reference, shooting a cylinder of in the Fiocchi 142 grain FMJ load @ 1420 FPS (from an N-Frame, mind you) leaves a nice stinging sensation in web of my hand. For reference, standard 158s @ 1200 from this gun feel like barely more than .38s.

 

[batmann]

I have used both Buffalo Bore (.44 Spl) and Double Tap (.44M and .357M) and have found them to excellent ammo.
The 158 gr GD HP from DT was very, very hot. Did it meet the mfg claims? I don't have a crony so I don't know, but it was hotter than any other .357 I have used.
The .44 Spl from BB was the HC Keith style SWC and it too performed well.

 

[kraigwy]

I have never read any published ballistics that matched my shooting in my crony. Sometimes my results are faster, sometimes slower.

I've shot a recommended load from a shorter barrel then the test barrel and got more velocity, sometimes the oppisite is the case.

Not saying all bal. data is BS, its just they have differant equipment and shoot in differant conditions.

You wont get the same results shooting the same ammo in two of the same rifles. Too many varibles.

You want to see what a factory bullet will do in your gun, or a certain load from a reloading manuel, then buy a crony and see for your self. Thats the only thing that will work accuratly.

 

[salvadore]

I know the brother of the guy who owns double tap, and he tells me they are not loaded for the faint of heart.

 

[Old Grump]

How do you know that?

I read a lot of gun reviews in a ton of different magazines and almost without fail they mention they get near but not quite the numbers from the manufacturer in their own guns. On the other hand their numbers match or exceed Weatherby numbers. Been seeing this for 40 years and I am beginning to see a trend here.

 

[Jim March]

Every independent test I've ever heard of with Buffalo Bore ammo has proven their claims correct. For example:

http://www.gunblast.com/Leupold-MKII-Tactical.htm

http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BBDeerKiller.htm

http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore125-357.htm

http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore.htm

This is truly good stuff.

NOTE: the original SAAMI pressure level for the 357 was 41k, it's been dropped to 35k due to all the various small guns chambered in 357, a few with questionable reliability (Taurus five-shot 357s fr'instance). Buffalo Bore uses the old spec for their high end stuff. It's REAL 357 ammo meant for REAL 357 guns.

I would shoot it in a Ruger GP100, S&W L-frame (6 or 7 shot models) or N-frame (6 or 8 shooters), any Ruger 357 SA (including the medium-frame New Vaquero and 50th Anniversary 357), or the like.

I would not shoot it in a five-shot "snubbie" 357 with the possible exception of the Ruger SP101; I wouldn't shoot very much of it in a K-frame S&W or Ruger Security/Service/Speed series, and I would hesitate (bigtime) before shooting it in any Brazilian gun (period) or any older Italian SA replica prior to about year 2000 or so.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should it be shot in a lever-action rifle based on the Winchester 1873 or earlier design. Not even once. The toggle-link action will not hold. Worst case, one shot could break it and send the bolt through your eye with fatal results. Those rifles are for low-powered 357 only, some sources say don't exceed 25k pressure, most people buy them as 38Specials. Modern Marlins are OK as is anything based on the Winchester 1892 action (even the now-discontinued Rossi '92s are pretty tough, an exception to the "no Brazilian" rule).

As to Doubletap. They're cheaper than Buffalo Bore and sometimes don't meet their own claims. HOWEVER, they're pretty damn good. I shot a DT 125gr full house 357 round out of my Ruger 4.68" barrel, hit a bowling ball from 20 paces out, split it in half and sent fist-size pieces of the concrete core back past my feet. The guy whose range I was at assured me he'd never seen that kind of instant devastation to a bowling ball from any handgun ever. I think they make good ammo. I strongly suspect BuffBore is better but not by much.

The "what guns I'd use them in" list is the same as for Buffalo Bore 357.

Two other small "radical" ammo houses to keep track of are Grizzly Ammo, who do hardcast hunting loads only (no jacketed hollowpoint) including 357 and Garrett Cartridges, who specialize in very hot 44Magnum and 45-70 hardcasts for bear defense and hunting.

 

[wnycollector]

I think they make good ammo. I strongly suspect BuffBore is better but not by much.

I absolutely agree with this analysis of DT ammo. Their ammo is ~90% of the velocity of BB ammo at 50% of the price!

I have chronographed DT ammo in .38, .357, .40, 45 and 9mm. Every caliber ammo other than .38 special was within +/- 2% of the DT stated velocity. My biggest dissapointment with DT was their .38 special 125gr gold dot load that was 20% less velocity than their claimed velocity!!!

 

[Molasses]

357 sig did it first in a 40 MM case

Probably not too hard with that 40 MM case capacity to work with...

 

[Sarge]

Frank Kelly on the strength of the modern 1873. Worth a read.

 

[Jim March]

Sarge, I think I read that many years ago. Thanks for the link...pretty much confirms my opinion that very hot 357s and toggle-link leverguns are a bad combo.

 

[Sarge]

You're welcome Jim. Kelly probably has more rounds through lever actions than most of us do through any rifle, so the BTDT factor on his stuff is very high.

I was a little surprised when 73's started showing up in .357 Mag... to many of us, that stamping still means "158's at/near 1500 fps" and it was a poor pairing in my opinion.

 

[Webleymkv]

It's really no secret as to how makers like Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, and Grizzly get so much higher velocities out of their ammo. First of all, they actually load their ammo to SAAMI maximum. Most manufacturers load their ammunition to pressures significantly lower than SAAMI or, depending on the country the ammo's made in, CIP maximum. I've seen pressure tests of supposedly +P ammunition before that is actually within SAAMI standard pressure spec. Secondly, the hot rodders are a bit more careful of their choice in powders. I suspect that DT, BB, and Grizzly are using faster burning powders in many of their loadings than the bigger names like Winchester, Remington, Federal, CCI/Speer, and Hornady. Finally, I've been told numerous times that DT, BB, and Grizzly blend powders together in order to achieve maximum velocities.

On a side note, while Fiocchi and S&B's .357 Magnum are a bit hotter than most U.S. made ammo, it's not as much as you might think. If one looks closely and Fiocchi and S&B's velocity figures you will see that they are typically testing from a 6" or longer barrel while most U.S. spec ammo is tested from a 4" barrel.