Are hand loads okay for self-defense?

Jager1

New member
Are hand loads a no-no for self-defense?

You hear it from the top “experts” on down to the guy standing next to you at the gun shop counter.

“You shouldn’t use hand loads for self defense. You could be charged criminally or sued civilly if you do”.

Despite the fervent ardor of this undying mantra, there seems to be a distinct shortage of case examples when any of these ‘advisors’ are asked to provide one. A case in which hand loaded ammunition was the basis for criminal prosecution or civil litigation. Yet they insist their behavior is legitimate, somehow.

Do these cases even exist except in the minds of the professors of such divine knowledge?

My contention is exactly that. That the mantra is simply regurgitated in gun shops, at gun shows (and on internet discussion boards) with no basis in fact. Or, that if these cases in fact do exist, they are so rare as to not be a factor for consideration in the selection of defensive ammunition.

I further offer that decisions regarding preparation for an anticipated event should be made based upon specific things. I think we would all agree that when planning for an event, we make our decision based on experience, reasoned foresight, and the intent to encompass contingency based upon likelihood. We should be especially diligent regarding those choices involving self-defense.

In previous discussions regarding this topic, I have witnessed a trend in the opinions of the “factory only ammunition” crowd. The defense of their selection typically involves pure conjecture. Essentially, all they offer are hypothetical scenarios. I am not asking for “what-if scenarios” but rather identifiable cases that can be verified. Cases where the hand loaded ammunition became an issue for the intended victim in a civil (or perhaps a criminal) case.

I am talking about a justifiable self-defense shooting (no Grand Jury indictment) in which hand loads are used. Hand loads that are manufactured with commercially available standard components in a standard and legal configuration with no Federal, State or local laws being broken.

If you are one of the “factory ammunition only” crowd, I am interested in hearing on what factual basis you have made your selection.

Could we be guilty of perpetuating a mythical fear of a truly non-existent demon amongst ourselves? Are there legitimate documented reasons for practicing this behavior, or are many of us simply Pavlov’s dogs under a self-inflicted and slightly different regimen?

I must stress again that we should not be looking for hypothetical scenarios (this is key to the legitimacy of any discussion surrounding this issue).
 

M1911

New member
Handloads for self defense? Answer one question: why?

There's a wide variety of perfectly good factory loads out there. So why handload your own? You don't shoot enough JHP for the cost to be a significant issue, so you're really not saving much by handloading. As for accuracy, we're talking about self-defense with a pistol at close ranges, with you moving and the target moving. Any additional accuracy to be gained by tuning your load to your gun would be lost in the wash.

Could handloads be used against you in court. I don't know. It seems like a possibility, given some of the prosecuters around here (I live in Boston).

Personally, I see no upside to handloads for self defense and a possible downside.

And yes, I do reload, but only practice rounds.

M1911
 

sig970

New member
Here is a simple thought, for just one aspect of this question.

If you are sued civilly for a justified shooting. Using factory ammo could be helpful.

Mr Smith, we would like you to explain to us about this ammo you are loading yourself for "self Defense".

vs.

Mr Smith, where did you buy your ammo? K-Mart


My combat instructor told me to go down to K-Mart, buy 180 grain Premium hollow points, (or whatever you use), and save the receipt. That way if I was ever sued, I could say, "I bought these bullets at K-Mart. It's a family store"

My receipt has a box of 180 gr .40 S&W Federal Hydra Shok's and a dress for a 4 year old girl.

Will it make a difference?

Who knows
 

FPrice

New member
Jager1,

One of the stronger proponents of factory-loads only for self-defense is I believe Massad Ayoob who is an expert witness in shooting trials. He has been there and has seen the "cases" made by prosecutors that the defendant "purposely" loaded his own ammunition in order to cause as much pain and suffering to his (innocent) victim as possible.

Now you and I and every other clear-thinking person can see through this rather easily and see what the prosecutor is trying to do. Imagine that you are a naive but otherwise nice jurymember who knows nothing at all about guns or bullets and some rather imposing attorney tells you you this BS and the opposing side does nothing to prove him wrong?

It's not that using handloads is wrong per se, it's that in the hands of an anti-gun shyster (with apologies to all the honest lawyers out there, I have known many of you) it can be an emotional arguement which has no basis on the facts, but may be hard to counter.

M1911,

Wouldn't it have been so much worse if Mucko McDermott had used handloads in his shooting spree? Wouldn't the pain and suffering of his victims have been increased tenfold?

You and I live in a state where many prosecutors would use any arguement, valid or otherwise to crucify an honest citizen who used their handgun to defend themselves.

I agree with your premise that there are any number of good factory loads out there, I use Federal H-S's myself. But I think that the case against using handloads in self-defense is a false one. It may work, but that is a sad commentary on our judicial system.

Frosty
MOLON LABE
 

Onslaught

New member
I have heard the reasons behind WHY the experts suggest against it. I have listened closely to all sides, and all available information, then used my own logic, reasoning, and decision making skills, and have decided that if there are, or are not, cases involving hand-loaded ammo being somehow used against the shooter in a self-defense situation, I do NOT want to take the risk of being the first case I know of :D I don't need documented cases of where this has happened. I know our screwed up justice system well enough to believe that this COULD happen, and since the factory stuff is MORE than sufficient for my needs, why risk it?
 

M1911

New member
FPrice said:

"But I think that the case against using handloads in self-defense is a false one. It may work, but that is a sad commentary on our judicial system."

I think we agree that idea that someone using handloads would somehow be more dangerous than factory ammo, is, of course, a crock. And even if they were, isn't that exactly the point of shooting at someone? To stop them? We're not playing patty-cake here.

I've been to LFI-1 and LFI-2, so I'm familiar with Ayoob's recommendations against using handloads and his reasoning behind that. I haven't seen a documented case of a prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney using handloads against someone in court. But then I haven't looked for it.

As I said, I can easily imagine prosecutors around here using such arguments to paint the defendant in the most unflattering light, and I can see a jury of soccer moms believing it. The fact that we know it's a bunch of nonsense is immaterial. It might work. And as Onslaught said, it would really suck to be the test case.

Yes, it is a pretty sad commentary on our legal system.

So, I'm with Onslaught who said: "...since the factory stuff is MORE than sufficient for my needs, why risk it?" There's nothing to be gained with handloads and possibly something to be lost. So why use handloads?

M1911
 

RWK

New member
Jager,

There are too many variables to say for sure. If you live in Texas, for example, where there's a virtual "if an intruder is in your home there are no questions asked" policy, the answer's probably "no". On the other hand, if you live in DC, where just owning a handgun is essentially illegal, the answer certainly is "yes".

IMHO, courts will ask two key questions:
> Was there grave and immediate danger to innocent life?
> Did the shooter's conduct in any manner exacerbate the situation?

There are examples where self-made specialized loads (handloads) could actually mitigate the situation; for example, a lightly loaded .38 Special hollow point designed to prevent carry-through danger to adjacent rooms/dwellings. On the other hand -- and this is where I presume your inquiry is focused -- a "killer" round with ballistics and bullet performance that is more lethal than factory ammunition is certain to be used as "malicious premeditation" in certain legal environments, such as California and Massachusetts, which are decidedly handgun unfriendly.

Accordingly, I recommend factory defensive loads. If a Golden Saber, HydraShok or other top-rate commercial defensive round isn't adequate, what is?
 

AndABeer

New member
one argument for handloads would be that you use for defense exactly what you practice with and know for a fact that you have so many thousand round through the gun without a problem, with careful shopping you can find hollow points for reloading quite inexpensively and then proceed to practice with your pet load, i daresay i would go broke were i to practice with the premium loads that come in the 20 round boxes, and though i do carry that premium ammo i sometimes wonder about reliablity because i have not shot a lot of it through my carry gun
 

M1911

New member
AndABeer said: "though i do carry that premium ammo i sometimes wonder about reliablity because i have not shot a lot of it through my carry gun"

That's why I've shot a hundred or more rounds of my carry ammo before trusting it. I then shoot the rounds that I'm carrying ever six months or so. If I have a malfunction, then it's time to requalify the gun/magazines/ammo combination.

M1911
 

Shok

New member
I agree with AndaBeer and FPrice. I believe the pros and cons offset each other except for one thing. Factory ammo has sealant applied to the primer. If you carry concealed sweat, rain, and anything else could possibly contaminate the primer or powder. For HD I would rather shoot my handloads but if I carried concealed I would use factory ammo.

Shok
 

pax

New member
Good points, all.

Sitting here talking about it with my shooting buddy and my husband, and our consensus is that it's a good thing there are so many +p super dooper kill em all factory rounds available. That way, if I'm ever on the stand, I can say, "Why no, your honor. I was just using a standard defense round. I wasn't using Cor-Bons or cop killers or Black Talons ... That stuff could kill someone!"

pax

I do not care to speak ill of any man behind his back, but I believe the gentleman is an attorney. -- Samuel Johnson
 

FPrice

New member
pax,

Maybe some bright young market major could develop a self-defense load named "Super Sweet Love Em All Rainbow Candy Drops". Now WHO could criticise you for using such a load to protect yourself and your loved ones?

Who but the Good Taste Police.

Frosty
MOLON LABE
 

Brasso

New member
Here's my opinion. I DO carry my own handloads. Their for a .44spl. I feel they offer a better defense. I've never heard of a case where it mattered. And if it did, it was a questionable shooting to begin with.
 

Dr.Rob

Staff Alumnus
Anyone ever watch Court TV???

The only time I've ever seen a prosecutor have a "slant" on ammunition is the infamous "black talon" bullet.

The forensics guys won't be able to tell if your xtp bullet was a reload or a factory round.

Colorado's so called 'make my day law' protects homeowners from civil lawsuits in the event of a use of force by the homeowner against a trespasser/criminal.

So I'd say,here, in Colorado maybe it doesn't matter.... IF you trust YOUR reloads.. or your buddies the way you trust Federal, or Winchester, or Corbon or any other premium ammo manufacturer.

"carry ammo" should probably be factory ammo for the main reason of reliability. i'd also recommend nickel cases and sealed primers
 

Al Thompson

Staff Alumnus
I'll second Dan on the reloads...

We've both seen some folks at IDPA matches with crummy handloads.

Second, IIRC, there was a case in Buzz Knox's neck of the woods where the distance from the good guy to the bad guy was in question. The ammo was handloaded/remanufactured and (IIRC) the forensics guys initially felt that the bad guy was much furthur away due to the powder residue (stippling?). Apparently that was a major reson that the DA had the Grand Jury indict the guy. Ayoob used this in one of his articles.

BTW - I inspect every round of HD ammo prior to putting it in the gun/magazine/ammo box. I have had a few with bent primers. Two brands that I've never had a problem with is Speer and GA Arms.

Giz
 

blades67

New member
Carry what you are comfortable with and know what you are doing. If you are ever involved in a shooting being in the right is all that will matter.
 

Dead

New member
Ok,

Here is one for all of you.

In NJ you can be charged with using excessive force if you shoot, in self-defence, someone with hollow-point ammo. Even if it is a clear cut case of self-defence. No the only question I can ask is, why does it matter what bullet is used???? In fact the Hollow-point reduces the chances of over-penetration. (i.e less likely to penetrate a BG and hit someone else.)
 

OkieGentleman

New member
Handloads

Look at it this way. Using the same load the local PD uses as its basic load will remove just one more, possibly a minor or possibly a major item, in the problems you would have after a self-defense shooting. Why add to the size of your problem when you might have a large enough problem without adding in handloads.

Just my 2C worth. :)
 
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