AR vs M1A SOCOM 16
- Thread starter Hammer1
- Start date
azredhawk44
Moderator
In regards to M14 rifles... you lose about 200fps going from the 22" standard barrel to the 16" barrel with compensator. You also lose a lot of sight radius... a big deal if you leave it equipped with irons, not so much if you put optics on it. Accuracy just isn't there for the short barreled rifles in comparison to the well-regarded accuracy of the full barreled rifles. SOCOM owners are lucky to get below 3" groups from a bench, worse from prone or standing. My 18" Scout model is lucky to get below 2" groups. A 22" rifle is capable of acheiving 1" groups.
Between the errant accuracy and the loss of velocity, the usefulness of a .308 16" carbine is limited to close engagements where the weight of the weapon begins to impede it's caliber advantage in comparison to an AR.
I think that the short M14 carbines are silly. I have an 18" M1A Scout that in retrospect might have been a better purchase as a standard 22" rifle. As a result, I've got a custom M14 being assembled by a gunsmith here in AZ to fit my ideal specs for the rifle.
I'm also building a lightweight AR carbine from a Cavalry Arms CAV-15 lower. I'm not sure if I want a 16" or 20" barrel for it... my goals change from time to time.
Between the errant accuracy and the loss of velocity, the usefulness of a .308 16" carbine is limited to close engagements where the weight of the weapon begins to impede it's caliber advantage in comparison to an AR.
I think that the short M14 carbines are silly. I have an 18" M1A Scout that in retrospect might have been a better purchase as a standard 22" rifle. As a result, I've got a custom M14 being assembled by a gunsmith here in AZ to fit my ideal specs for the rifle.
I'm also building a lightweight AR carbine from a Cavalry Arms CAV-15 lower. I'm not sure if I want a 16" or 20" barrel for it... my goals change from time to time.
What ****?
What F*n?
The needs of one in Eastern Montana will differ from one in East Cleveland, Ohio.
My solution in suburbia?
I'll be humping more than a rifle/ammo, the lightest sensible rifle with the lightest sensible ammo works for me.
The rifle is just one tool among many that must be in the bag.
Regards,
Walt
What F*n?
The needs of one in Eastern Montana will differ from one in East Cleveland, Ohio.
My solution in suburbia?
I'll be humping more than a rifle/ammo, the lightest sensible rifle with the lightest sensible ammo works for me.
The rifle is just one tool among many that must be in the bag.
Regards,
Walt
.351winchester
Moderator
I would have said Scout Squad also, until I shouldered the Socom a couple weeks ago. It handled not unlike a Mini 14, little more beefy, but roughly same length and a nice heft. No question 18" would be better, but was just reading an article today, on Encore pistol and rifle bbl. lengths, with surprising chrony results. No way around a disorienting muzzle blast. But it will get you out to 500 yd. (with optics, not possible w/ large size, CQB iron setup), with authority. Double the .223's effective range. And if you're talking about a 16" AR w/ standard gas system, you have a carbine that requires stricter maintenance, and limited stopping power with such a short bbl. Now, a .308 has incredible versatility- hunting, SD/HD, battle rifle, etc. (get a .22 too). I guess the Scout mod. is the better overall choice, I just fell in love with the Socom.
SHTF, would be good to have spare/replacement parts, mags, and ammo by the case, and working knowledge to make your own repairs. With the .308, that's gonna hit hard, if you just look at the price of a rifle.
SHTF, would be good to have spare/replacement parts, mags, and ammo by the case, and working knowledge to make your own repairs. With the .308, that's gonna hit hard, if you just look at the price of a rifle.
Redneckrepairs
New member
Tho i dont have a SOCOM i have shot a buddys and do have a FAL . I also have an AR carbine . If the SHTF and push comes to shove both my ar and my fal will be left behind . What will go with me is my savage scout ( due to light weight for caliber not specific " scout " quality's . ). Higher mag capacity counts for defending the homestead not for walking miles where i could avoid contact . For me at least avoidance would be first , running from a group second , and a rifle of any kind rather more distant . If the SHTF what i need for a utility rifle is light weight and the ability to place one shot on target at realistic ranges . The little savage fulfills that either with the scope or jerk it off and the irons work fine . Its likely tho that the .22 pistol i would carry would get a lot more use to pot small game ect. As stated tho were i at home i would keep/use them all lol .
bufordtjustice
New member
I've got a socom and I am just not that impressed with it. I think I may trade it for a squad scout and put a vortex flash hider on it. I think the socom may be too specialized for a utility rifle role. Also, the ghost rings are hard to zero and really hamper distance shooting in my opinion. The scout has regular sights so you could detach a CQB optic if need be and do some longer range shooting. The socoms look cool as hell though.
.351winchester
Moderator
Walt: I think it was JD Jones' colums in last month's American Handgunner. Read another one recently about shooting 700 yards with handguns (rifle ctg., bolt and singles). I bet with the right optic a Socom could reach beyond what most of us are capable of, and accurately. Muzzle blast/flash, are the real downside to that short of a bbl. I understand 22"-24" is ideal in getting the .308's full potential.
"seems a lot like .45 vs. 9mm"
bigger gap than that IMO, .45 vs. .32, or 12 g. vs. 28 g.
I still like the .223 round, but as a HD/CQB weapon only. It's utility is consolidating other guns of that type (SMG, Shotgun, standard assault rifle, etc.), other than that, pest control and bigger small game. A .308 scoped battle rifle is very good at a lot of different things, practical uses to far fetched possibilities. Scout Squad with Vortex and Leupold or Burris pistol scope, and also a traditional rifle scope(w/BDC) and mount, and supply of match grade ammo, that's a good rifle for all seasons.
"seems a lot like .45 vs. 9mm"
bigger gap than that IMO, .45 vs. .32, or 12 g. vs. 28 g.
I still like the .223 round, but as a HD/CQB weapon only. It's utility is consolidating other guns of that type (SMG, Shotgun, standard assault rifle, etc.), other than that, pest control and bigger small game. A .308 scoped battle rifle is very good at a lot of different things, practical uses to far fetched possibilities. Scout Squad with Vortex and Leupold or Burris pistol scope, and also a traditional rifle scope(w/BDC) and mount, and supply of match grade ammo, that's a good rifle for all seasons.
kristop64089
New member
So if I said AK-47 for this scenario, I'd be way off base
.
Just kidding. I have an AR, But would rather have an M-14 variant.
Better round, better rifle (IMO)(and the US Navy's)
.Just kidding. I have an AR, But would rather have an M-14 variant.
Better round, better rifle (IMO)(and the US Navy's)
Maybe not. It's worth considering, though 7.2x39mm ammo might be a bit harder to come by than .223.
I might agree, if a rifle & ammo was all I had to carry. I think that the three or four pound (or more) difference between a semiauto M16 derivative (such as the Fulton ARmory Legacy I illustrated earlier in this thread) and an M14 might be put to better use for water.
I am a great fan of the M14 (here's my latest):
—but I don't think I'd really want it as my SHTF tool, unless I could recruit a gun bearer
.Regards,
Walt
Last edited:
Thanks, found it.
I had only skimmed that article because, alas, JD's test protocol provided results of little value. One would have to test a large number of each length barrel in order to get some group data (not group size, but the average velocity from each group) and thus to be able to draw a conclusion. He may have had a "fast" pistol barrel and "slow" rifle barrel, for example. A sample of one (each) just doesn't provide useful data.
Don't get me wrong, I know JD (though I don't think he knows me
) and respect him highly. It's just that the scientist in me can't draw conclusions from that sort of test.Consequently, I'm setting up what I believe to be a more useful test protocol: use one barrel on a T/C Encore (pistol, so I can get down to 2" legally if I want to), cutting down the length for each step of the experiment. I must tell you that the rig looks pretty silly with a 28" barrel on the T/C pistol (just try to hold that up, we'll be using a HAMMR rest)
Come late spring & nice weather it will be off to the range with rest, chrono and chop saw
.Regards,
Walt
kristop64089
New member
Walt, I agree.
My reasoning is based on the .308 round. I like the 556 as well, but given the scenario the OP has given, I see this round as a more "all purpose" round.
True the M1-A1(and their offspring) are heavy, your body will adjust to the additional weight. At what cost, I do not know, but it will adjust
I am also making the mistake of assuming that, by AR he means 556 AR.
My reasoning is based on the .308 round. I like the 556 as well, but given the scenario the OP has given, I see this round as a more "all purpose" round.
True the M1-A1(and their offspring) are heavy, your body will adjust to the additional weight. At what cost, I do not know, but it will adjust
I am also making the mistake of assuming that, by AR he means 556 AR.
Kristop, one of the great things about this country is that you can decide for yourself what's best for you.
Just so I'm perfectly clear, a Fulton ARmory Legacy or Colt SP1 is not my first choice for any kind of shoot 'em out scenario, or taking game for that matter. If I need to leave all I have with just what I can carry, my belief is that I would be better served having the weight differential to pack more medical supplies, for instance.
For similar reasons my handgun might just be a Ruger Standard Model. .22LR cartridges make great fire starters, too.
In a bugout situation my strategy will be to avoid conflict, but to have enough gun to get me out of 99% of the foreseeably unavoidable. I am not planning to defend my hilltop against a horde of meth-crazed bikers
; I'm gonna run like the wind.99% of survival is having confidence in your equipment and the knowledge of how best to use it. If a .308 does that for you, Mazeltov!
Regards,
Walt