Ar receivers that are shipped with a stock?
- Thread starter Sharkbite
- Start date
Aguila Blanca
Staff
In fact, in the specific case of the AR-15, a lower receiver is really only half of a receiver. The lower holds the trigger group, but the upper holds the bolt carrier group. It has been argued that it is the upper receiver that should be the serial numbered part on an AR-15.
So I agree (although I am not a lawyer and I don't work for the BATFE) that a lower receiver is still just a receiver (i.e. "Other"), even if it wears a buttstock, until an upper receiver with a barrel has been attached to it.
So I agree (although I am not a lawyer and I don't work for the BATFE) that a lower receiver is still just a receiver (i.e. "Other"), even if it wears a buttstock, until an upper receiver with a barrel has been attached to it.
The AR lower might be "just a receiver" but that is machts nichts, it is still, LEGALLY the firearm.
Modular designs do play hob with the definitions created before modular firearms became prevalent, but that doesn't change the definitions, or the fact that only one serial# part is needed to be legally, the firearm.
I would agree that an AR upper is a receiver, but, so what? The lower is the serial numbered part and meets the legal requirements by being so.
Some people have pushed the argument about recievers and "firearms precursors" as all needing to be serialized, registered and tracked. Those people also want other parts registered, regulated and tracked, some literally think anything that isn't raw ore is a firearm precursor, and I think they would include raw ore in the ground if they could figure out a way to write that into a law...
The receiver, or frame is the main part, and generally speaking is the most durable part, Which is why it is usually the serial # part. Barrels wear out. Moving parts, wear out. When parts wear out, you replace them. When actions/frames wear out, you get a new gun...
There are a lot of parts that you cannot fire a gun without. barrels, firing pins, springs, etc., lots of parts, but without some part functioning as the receiver, you don't HAVE a gun, to begin with.
Modular designs do play hob with the definitions created before modular firearms became prevalent, but that doesn't change the definitions, or the fact that only one serial# part is needed to be legally, the firearm.
I would agree that an AR upper is a receiver, but, so what? The lower is the serial numbered part and meets the legal requirements by being so.
Some people have pushed the argument about recievers and "firearms precursors" as all needing to be serialized, registered and tracked. Those people also want other parts registered, regulated and tracked, some literally think anything that isn't raw ore is a firearm precursor, and I think they would include raw ore in the ground if they could figure out a way to write that into a law...
The receiver, or frame is the main part, and generally speaking is the most durable part, Which is why it is usually the serial # part. Barrels wear out. Moving parts, wear out. When parts wear out, you replace them. When actions/frames wear out, you get a new gun...
There are a lot of parts that you cannot fire a gun without. barrels, firing pins, springs, etc., lots of parts, but without some part functioning as the receiver, you don't HAVE a gun, to begin with.
Lets go a little farther.
So lets say someone pulls the upper and the stock off of an AR that was originally sold as a rifle.
The lower is then sold through a FFL and the form records it as an "other".
The new owner then builds a pistol with it.
A rifle has been used to make a pistol. (Sounds like a NFA violation to me)
The pistol is then involved in a legal self defense activity (no death involved) but taken by the police while they investigate. They run the SN and find it was originally a rifle. What happens next?
I have wondered about this kind of sequence when seeing a used Contender / Encore being sold as a bare frame.
So lets say someone pulls the upper and the stock off of an AR that was originally sold as a rifle.
The lower is then sold through a FFL and the form records it as an "other".
The new owner then builds a pistol with it.
A rifle has been used to make a pistol. (Sounds like a NFA violation to me)
The pistol is then involved in a legal self defense activity (no death involved) but taken by the police while they investigate. They run the SN and find it was originally a rifle. What happens next?
I have wondered about this kind of sequence when seeing a used Contender / Encore being sold as a bare frame.
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
Yes, an AR-15 lower receiver is a "firearm." But until it has been mated to an upper receiver with a barrel, it isn't a "pistol" or a "rifle," it's an "other."44 AMP said:
Aguila Blanca
Staff
In my non-lawyer opinion, if the owner sells it as an "other" when it has been built as a rifle, he/she is breaking the law.P Flados said:
Somebody goes to jail.
dogtown tom
New member
Yet not the entire definition.
An AR lower receiver with a shoulder stock attached is not a handgun, not a long gun....just a firearm receiver.
dogtown tom
New member
True.
The reason ATF designated the lower as "the firearm" is because of industry request......more flat space for marking/engraving.
Although such split receivers have been common for over half a century, ATF for some reason never got around to specifically designating which half of the receiver is "the firearm". That is why we have 2021R-05F, Definition of “Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms:https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/definition-frame-or-receiver
I think I may be getting a better "picture" now.
For a new "lower kit" with a brace, the receiver is still an other. If a 16" barrel is put on it first, it becomes a rifle only. If a short barrel upper is installed first, the lower is now a pistol lower that can then go back and forth.
For a gun originally sold as a rifle, any FFL to FFL paperwork and the ATF Form 4473 (kept at the FFL location until the FFL goes out of business and sends it to the ATF) will show it as a rifle. These are never legal for a short barrel without becoming a NFA SBR.
So all of these used bare frame Contenders and Encores should be treated as "rifle only" unless it can be confirmed that they were not originally documented as rifles.
For a new "lower kit" with a brace, the receiver is still an other. If a 16" barrel is put on it first, it becomes a rifle only. If a short barrel upper is installed first, the lower is now a pistol lower that can then go back and forth.
For a gun originally sold as a rifle, any FFL to FFL paperwork and the ATF Form 4473 (kept at the FFL location until the FFL goes out of business and sends it to the ATF) will show it as a rifle. These are never legal for a short barrel without becoming a NFA SBR.
So all of these used bare frame Contenders and Encores should be treated as "rifle only" unless it can be confirmed that they were not originally documented as rifles.
dogtown tom
New member
Exactly the situation I asked of my IOI when I first received my FFL in 2008.
He said "record what type of firearm is in front of you".
If originally manufactured or assembled as a rifle, it can never be reassembled as anything other than a rifle. Period.
Does it happen? For sure.
Is it enforced or prosecuted? Not to my knowledge.
Who knows.
Local PD doesn't enforce federal laws. While they might refer this to ATF I doubt that would happen.
So did ATF when they saw Thompson Center selling a kit with a receiver, pistol bbl, pistol grip, rifle bbl and shoulder stock. The kit came with explicit instructions on avoiding the short bbl with the shoulder stock.
ATF said "Well, once you made it into a rifle, it can never be a pistol!"
TC said "Nuh, Uh!"
USSC said "ATF wrong!" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Thompson-Center_Arms_Co.
Nineteen years later, ATF gets around to updating its regs with Ruling 2011-4
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download
And we lived happily ever after.
dogtown tom
New member
Name that law they are breaking. (Hint......there ain't one
)Unlikely for many reasons.
My opinion carries no legal weight.
But one could argue the serialized lower is "the firearm" and various upper assembies can be looked at as "Accessory Modules" that are just pinned on to compliment "the mission". Still only one person will fire one gun at a time.
How sinister is an H+R Topper with .219 Zipper, 30-30 and 12 ga "uppers"
If we go back to a Hawken muzzle loader, with patent hook breech and wedge keys,Sam COULD HAVE offered 36 cal,54 cal,and 12 gauge "Upper Modules"
There was no BATF to micromanage the RTKBA
Consider Kirby Vacuums and Kitchenaide Mixers. "Yeah,it LOOKS like a mixer! But you have a sausage grinder and a pasta machine!! You might bootlegging Italian food! What is worse, you might put Cream and Peas in the Carbonara!!
The FDA has to act in these cases to prevent atrocities!!
But one could argue the serialized lower is "the firearm" and various upper assembies can be looked at as "Accessory Modules" that are just pinned on to compliment "the mission". Still only one person will fire one gun at a time.
How sinister is an H+R Topper with .219 Zipper, 30-30 and 12 ga "uppers"
If we go back to a Hawken muzzle loader, with patent hook breech and wedge keys,Sam COULD HAVE offered 36 cal,54 cal,and 12 gauge "Upper Modules"
There was no BATF to micromanage the RTKBA
Consider Kirby Vacuums and Kitchenaide Mixers. "Yeah,it LOOKS like a mixer! But you have a sausage grinder and a pasta machine!! You might bootlegging Italian food! What is worse, you might put Cream and Peas in the Carbonara!!
The FDA has to act in these cases to prevent atrocities!!
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