AR-24 ejection oddity

[overkill556x45]

I took my brand new AR-24 out this weekend and put 160 rounds through it. I had two kinda-FTE's. The one FTE at 50rd, then at 160rd--one common denominator was both occurred with the same factory mag (which led to me forthcoming theory).

The FTE-ish thing was this: (first time) The spent case came fully out of the chamber, and was caught between the magazine and the fresh round which was ABOVE it, fully engaged by the extractor. (second time) The slide locked open (mag was empty) and I looked to make sure I was clear. There on top of the empty mag follower sat a spent case--free of the extractor and entirely out of the chamber. Just sitting there. I inspected the case, and there was no damage.

My theory is this- the AR-24 must use some tension caused by the next round in the magazine or the mag follower to help kick the spent case out of the ejection port.

The magazine that was in use for both FTEs was hard to seat and lock in place. It also needed to be pulled out of the mag well. I also noticed that if I locked the slide open and tried to load a snap cap by using the yo-yo method, nothing would happen. The slide would remain locked back. But if I used the slide release, it would load. My other 3 mags do not show any of these behaviors. (One is a factory mag, the other two are Mec-Gar EAA Witness mags)

Any other theories?

Thanks.

 

[bdb benzino]

was the mag that gave u problems a factory mag or a mec gar, and it does sound like u need to replace that mag. by the way besides that how do you like the ar 24, i love cz style autos and have been very interested in getting a sarsilmaz, whether its a ar 24 or not i dont care. how were your groupings, recoil?

 

[overkill556x45]

It was a factory mag that choked the AR both times.

Groups were great. I learned to shoot with a Browning HP and 1911A1, and the AR-24 follows the same lines and feel. I really like it.

My first three rounds went into the bull's eye. I strung the rest out below it--my trigger pull fell apart for a bit. Once I calmed down and got back on my game, no bull's eye was safe. It really is quite accurate.

Recoil was minimal. Even for a 9mm, there was very little recoil or muzzle flip. The weight of it kept the muzzle from rising even during rapid fire strings.

I'm going to test my theory next weekend by leaving my bad mag out of the rotation.

 

[bdb benzino]

let me know how it woks out , hopfully good. i learned to shoot w wheel guns but when i came across my tangfolio it was love at first sight, and it performed awsome, i shoot better w that than any thing else. i also have 3 mec gar mags for eaa and they have all worked flawlessly, i even bought a cz 75 mec gar mag, it was a tight fit at first but `it got better and it also works just as well

 

[Dfariswheel]

The AR-24 does not use the magazine as an aid for ejection.
I don't know of any handgun that does.
Ejection in the AR, which is simply a "clone" of the CZ-75, is done with the extractor and the ejector.

What you had was failures to eject due to any one of a number of causes.
It's not uncommon for a case to fail to eject and be found laying on the magazine follower, often backward, or in the classic "stove pipe" position.
It's also not uncommon for a failed ejection to be found with an empty case UNDER a live round.

What can happen in these cases is the empty case fails to eject, the next round is partially fed from the magazine and is then "bounced" fully out, swapping positions with the empty case.
Result is a strange stoppage with a live round on top of an empty case, which sounds impossible.

I'd be cleaning and inspecting the extractor, which is the most likely problem.

 

[Dobe]

From my experience

My AR-24 would never eject the last round from either of my factory magazines. I found this unusual until I did a little research on the internet. It seems that the earlier models simply behaved in this manner, or so I was told.

I pushed my AR-24 hard, by dry firing it hundreds of times per night, knowing that I would eventually break the rebound spring. I was in continual diaglouge with an Arma Lite rep, and I informed him of the abuse I was giving my new toy. I was also putting 2,000 rounds through this handgun in about 2 months, shooting at least 2-300 rounds each time I shot. It is a nice shooter.

Finally, the rebound spring broke, and I sent it back to the factory at my cost. I'm telling you this, because when I got my AR-24 back, it ejected every last empty brass from the chamber as though it were the first. I believe their problem is in the extractor tension.

Also, the AR-24 is not a clone. It is however an adaptation of the CZ 75. In my oppinion, it is an advancement of the original design. Unfortunately, it is a sleeper, and may never gain the market share it desrerves, in part because of the price. It is more expensive than the CZ's.

 

[Shane Tuttle]

Finally, the rebound spring broke, and I sent it back to the factory at my cost.

Why did you have to pay for it? Is their warranty not up to snuff?

 

[Dobe]

I was running a quick test over a two month period. I was also recording this test on AR15.com. In doing so, I told the ArmaLite rep that I dry fire handguns often and instensly, and that I have broken several trigger springs on different handguns. Because I knew I could break it, would break it, and because I pushed it beyond the normal limits, I felt the cost should fall to me.

 

[Willie D]

Also, the AR-24 is not a clone. It is however an adaptation of the CZ 75. In my oppinion, it is an advancement of the original design. Unfortunately, it is a sleeper, and may never gain the market share it desrerves, in part because of the price. It is more expensive than the CZ's.

The AR-24 (Turkish Sarsilmaz) is copy of the Italian Tanfoglio which is a derivative design of the CZ.


By rebound spring do you mean extractor spring?

I had a Tanfoglio (Witness) which I liked a lot but it had tons of ejection problems. Eventually I gave up on it. I guess I should have tried a new spring but after a certain point I just got fed up. The extractor itself was a bit smaller than the CZ's.


I liked a lot of features of the Italian design compared to the Czech: Safety worked with hammer decocked, firing pin block safety doesn't push against the trigger, better trigger, better sights, better grip. The big problem for me was that mine wasn't nearly as reliable as my CZ. I mean, why care about a full length metal guide rod if a dinky plastic one will do the job just as well or better.


I'd like to try the Armalite but they are too expensive to my eyes. Does Turkey have a stronger currency than the Euro? More likely Armalite just takes a bigger cut than EAA or CZUSA does.

 

[bdb benzino]

Willy D

i have an earlier tangfolio before EAA its imported by excam in the late 80s, i have never had a extraction problem, i wonder if the ones from EAA differ from the older ones. i am like you though i like the italian version better than the real cz it fits like a glove and an awsome trigger. would love to get my hands on a sarsilmaz!!

 

[JohnKSa]

The AR-24 does not use the magazine as an aid for ejection.
I don't know of any handgun that does.

I know for a fact that it's pretty common for one well-known plastic pistol to consistently eject down the magazine well if no magazine is in place...

 

[Dobe]

I'd like to try the Armalite but they are too expensive to my eyes. Does Turkey have a stronger currency than the Euro? More likely Armalite just takes a bigger cut than EAA or CZUSA does

If you have the oportunity to handle one, and field strip it, you will see the difference between the AR-24 and the CZs. That is why the additional cost.

 

[Willie D]

Are you talking about lack of tool marks or something else in the internals?

 

[overkill556x45]

I bought my AR-24 for $499, and I traded in a Gen 3 Glock 17 for it--so more like $200 out of pocket. I found a CZ-75B for $545 at another shop.

As for ejecting down the mag well--my buddy's Steyr M9A1 will almost always chuck empties down the mag well if there is no mag in place. He also had to replace the extractor spring.

I think the AR has a larger extractor than the CZ or Witness, but has all the neato features of the Witness (slide still moves on SA with safety engaged, Safety can engage on decocked hammer).

There may just be some cosmoline stuck in the extractor's naughty bits. My AR came slathered in cosmoline and it took a bit of dousing with Hoppe's Elite Solvent (solvent that has undergone more intensive training?) and it came off after an evening's work. I gotta wonder if there is a big glob of it under the extractor. Unfortunately, my tools are back home (I'm back at college now) so it will be the weekend before I can tear it apart. BTW, the extractor seems to have plenty of tension. I took the slide apart and stuck a snap cap on the extractor and rotated the slide 360 degrees. The round never left solid contact with the bolt face (not sure of correct nomenclature- I'm a rifle guy). The snap cap never moved at all. The extractor had quite a grip on it.

I guess the only step left is to break out the brass punches and see what falls out of the slide.

Thanks guys!

 

[Dobe]

Are you talking about lack of tool marks or something else in the internals?

Yep, and more:

Forgings: Both slide and frame are forged steel. The frame on the CZ is cast, and perhaps this is sufficient, but perhaps it may not be over time. Nonetheless, apparently CZ believes their forgings are stronger than their cast as they too use forgings for their slides.

Extractor: The extractor is noticeably more massive on the AR-24 than on the CZ’s. I like the overkill. It gives one the feeling of wearing suspenders and a belt.

Firing Pin Stop: The AR-24 uses a 1911 firing pin stop instead to the roll pin used by CZ. I always felt the roll pin was a cheap way out. Anyway, if you dry fire, or simply like to be able to clean the slide well, or easily replace the firing pin spring, then you’ll appreciate this feature.

Ergonomics: The ergonomics to me are just a little nicer on the AR-24. I have always liked the ergonomics of the CZ, but the AR-24’s back strap is a little more recessed. This makes it easier to reach the safety, and to pull the trigger in DA mode. The palm swell grips are a comfortable touch too.

Appearance: I’m not particularly fond of a squared trigger guard. This is a personal taste of mine, so I was glad to see the AR-24 has a rounded guard. It looks a lot slicker. I feel this makes the lines a little more aesthetically pleasing.

Craftsmanship: You will find little or no tool marks on or in the AR-24. It is real old time craftsmanship.

Trigger Pull: The trigger pull on the AR-24 is simply better. There is some of the looooong camming sensation one experiences with a CZ’s trigger pull, but that is where the similarity ends. The firing pin safety spring of the AR-24 actually releases when the trigger is pulled. The CZ design compresses the firing pin safety spring as the trigger is being pulled. What this means is that the potential for a good trigger pull on an AR-24 is quiet good.

 

[Dobe]

By rebound spring do you mean extractor spring?

Sorry for taking so long to respond to this. I just reread your post, and I see where I missed it.

The spring in question is the trigger spring. Coiled trigger springs such as the AR-24 and most other handguns are inherently weak in comparison to springs that actually compress, such as those found on a S&W revolver. This is easier to demonstrate than to explain.

Most trigger springs are coiled, but the press of the trigger pull actually opens the coils, putting a higher proportion of the stress on the extremites of the spring. Its on one of the two extremities where the break always occurs. This generally doesn't happen unless you dry-fire a lot and often.

I've never broken trigger springs on a 1911 nor a Smith revolver - stands to reason when you think about the difference in the spring design and function.

 

[Shane Tuttle]

Thanks alot, Dobe. With that review you posted, it makes me regret getting the HK P30 instead of opting for the AR24.

Maybe I need to look into getting one next instead of saving up for a TRP right now...

 

[Dobe]

Actually, when you say HK P30, I start counting descrestionary cash. I went into my favorite Gun Shop in Baton Rouge last year to buy an HK P30. They had just sold the last one. They did have an HK 45, and I am the proud owner of said HK 45. Yet, I'm still pondering the P30.

 

[Viper1357]

AR-24 Not exactly a CZ clone... Sorta Sig P210 cross?

I bought one over a year ago now, and had some minor FTF and FTE issues with it that were fairly easily fixed. (1lb heavier recoil spring, deburring the extractor, stoning the hammer) The gun is made completely in Turkey, bulk shipped to Armalite USA, who then re-packages it, and sells and distributes it.

Take a careful look at the pics below. The guy from Armalite who designed it took many lines and features from the Sig P210, and incorporated it with modern pistol ergonomics and manufacturing innovations, yet kept the 'forged' steel concept. This AR-24 was to be his 'dream/vison gun design' as he loved the original Sig P210 he carried when he was stationed in Germany while serving in the military... Or so the story goes..

While unfortunately poorly marketed and under supported by Armalite and aftermarket companies, this gun really rocks. Once it's 'broken in' (I have an issue with breaking in pistols, but that's my problem) I have to say it's not as heavy as it looks, it is truly built like a tank, and will probably stay tight no matter how you try and abuse it. The ergos fit most hands like a glove, the natural pointability is outstanding, trigger pull is excellent for a duty style gun, and most of all it feeds anything from range ammo to NATO (which it was designed for) pressure ammo. The accuracy is the best of all box stock 9mm pistols I own, and I have a lot of them.

It is probably destined to become an orphan gun, but seriously I would go to this gun in a heartbeat as a 'shtf' or 'bug out' scenario for certain durability, reliability, and outstanding accuracy that rivals a tuned target pistol in 'duty' or combat form.

I'm not saying it's 'better than this or that' by any means, but it's a lot of quality gun for the money, and sadly not well known, but that's Armalite's issue.

Purely my humble opinion, but I love mine...