I once owned a bushmaster AR-15. It was heavy, close to 8 lbs, not terrably accurate, and had the bad habbit of jamming live rounds on the roof of the reciever above the bolt. This happend twice in just over 250 rounds, and both times it required tools to clear. What is more, the gun had an annoying twanging sound when fired that could be heard clearly through my hearing protection. While I do not doubt my problem was just that, my problem and not a universal standard, I must admit, my experience did make me turn my back to the design for the last five years. I am now far enough away from my experience to think objectively about the design and I am even considering trying another one. The ability of the design to use seperate upper recievers changing the platform from a lightweight carbine to a scoped precision rifle is what interests me the most, and it does seem to be THE standard in fighting carbines, but I always wondered why. My question is to the AR-15 owners and lovers, Why is the AR THE gun to get. What make is superior to all the competing designs?
AR-15 why do professionals use them?
- Thread starter Bullfrog
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TheGunslinger
New member
you must have had a lemon, or bad mags.
It's light, versitle (sp?), has light recoil, reliable (at least the military ones)and actually very accurate. It's not hard to hit a man sized target on a calm day at 500 or 600 meters.
The weird noise you speak of is just the buffer spring working, totally normal, just takes some getting used to.
It's light, versitle (sp?), has light recoil, reliable (at least the military ones)and actually very accurate. It's not hard to hit a man sized target on a calm day at 500 or 600 meters.
The weird noise you speak of is just the buffer spring working, totally normal, just takes some getting used to.
I am not sure it is superior to all the competing designs. But it does the job and does it well.
You experiences are not typical. The AR15 is well known for it's accuracy. A standard out of the box AR15 is a very accurate rifle. With a very little work, it wins at Camp Perry.
The type of malfunction you describe is one that I have never experienced. I own somewhere around 10 AR15 rifles and have fired well over thirty thousand rounds of ammo through them and never experienced that type of malfunction. In addition, I was issued an M16A1 in the Army and never experienced that kind of malfunction. I don't doubt that you did, I have heard of it happening, but it is far from common.
The noise of the spring is eliminated when you lubricate the spring.
I really don't know why civilian teams choose the M16/AR15 carbines. I would imagine a lot of it has to do with the price they buy them for. I think you will find that in most government agencies, the equipment they buy is more of a factor of pay-offs or the price they bid.
Another factor that I am sure comes into play is the accessory market. Every possible accessory is made specifically for that weapons system.
For close quarters combat, the cartridge is very good. It has huge stopping power and is able to penetrate body armor. The risk of overpenetration is reduced significantly with it's cartridge as opposed to pistol calibers and shotgun slugs.
You experiences are not typical. The AR15 is well known for it's accuracy. A standard out of the box AR15 is a very accurate rifle. With a very little work, it wins at Camp Perry.
The type of malfunction you describe is one that I have never experienced. I own somewhere around 10 AR15 rifles and have fired well over thirty thousand rounds of ammo through them and never experienced that type of malfunction. In addition, I was issued an M16A1 in the Army and never experienced that kind of malfunction. I don't doubt that you did, I have heard of it happening, but it is far from common.
The noise of the spring is eliminated when you lubricate the spring.
I really don't know why civilian teams choose the M16/AR15 carbines. I would imagine a lot of it has to do with the price they buy them for. I think you will find that in most government agencies, the equipment they buy is more of a factor of pay-offs or the price they bid.
Another factor that I am sure comes into play is the accessory market. Every possible accessory is made specifically for that weapons system.
For close quarters combat, the cartridge is very good. It has huge stopping power and is able to penetrate body armor. The risk of overpenetration is reduced significantly with it's cartridge as opposed to pistol calibers and shotgun slugs.
TheGunslinger
New member
now that I think about it, I do remember one time in bootcamp that exact same thing happened to me, bent the round above the bolt and had a hard time getting it out. Thousands of rounds later, I never had another malfunction of any type. Yours is the only time I've heard of that happening again, actually, and I've seen quite a few rounds go downrange
Good ergos, light, good ergos, a bazillion accessories, good ergos, easy to reconfigure, good ergos, accurate, and good ergos.
In the last couple of years, I've had an HK-91, Daewoo DR200, custom all-alloy .223 FAL, Beretta AR-70, M-14 clone, and a Norinco AKM/47S. I've really cooled off on "FBPP's"/"EBR's"/"Assault rifles"/whatever, and sold them all off, gradually.
Still have an AR as a house gun. Will be getting another as a backup house gun.
In the last couple of years, I've had an HK-91, Daewoo DR200, custom all-alloy .223 FAL, Beretta AR-70, M-14 clone, and a Norinco AKM/47S. I've really cooled off on "FBPP's"/"EBR's"/"Assault rifles"/whatever, and sold them all off, gradually.
Still have an AR as a house gun. Will be getting another as a backup house gun.
A Colt rifle is going to cost a police agency maybe $800, max. It will be reliable, accurate and tough enough for their uses. It also is tremendously well supported.
They could use HK33s for a similar price, but they're heavier and don't balance as well, but some did anyway. No one is really marketing Augs in the US police market, the Ruger is inaccurate, the FNC is no better than an AR in most regards and that leaves Sig 550s for nearly $2000.
Since all of these guns are reliable and 1 MOA, why wouldn't they choose the inexpensive vanilla model?
(Keep in mind that these guns don't need to work in swamps and deserts.)
They could use HK33s for a similar price, but they're heavier and don't balance as well, but some did anyway. No one is really marketing Augs in the US police market, the Ruger is inaccurate, the FNC is no better than an AR in most regards and that leaves Sig 550s for nearly $2000.
Since all of these guns are reliable and 1 MOA, why wouldn't they choose the inexpensive vanilla model?
(Keep in mind that these guns don't need to work in swamps and deserts.)
Advantages of an AR:
Excellent ergonomics (especially when compared to stuff like the G36 and the AK) - The AR stock design is comfy to most shooters, and few can argue that changing mags is accomplished faster with the AR than with most other carbines.
Accuracy - Even my 16" lightweight barrel can hit a soda can at 100 yards with alarming regularity. The seven-lug design, lack of an op-rod, and various other factors (good default sights on carry handle, easy optics mounting on flattops) contribute to this accuracy.
Ease of maintenance - Shotgunning the AR and wiping down all the major components can be accomplished in 10 minutes with little effort. I'm convinced most people overclean their ARs, BTW.
Don't get an HBAR (heavy barrel profile) if you want a light, handy rifle. The lightweight/M4 profiles weigh nearly 2 pounds less, and, IMHO, balance well.
This is dependent on a lot of factors (ammo, the shooter, etc.). Your average Bushie AR will not win at Camp Perry, but it's accurate enough for what most people use them for (plinking, practical shooting competitions, and combat/self-defense).
Excellent ergonomics (especially when compared to stuff like the G36 and the AK) - The AR stock design is comfy to most shooters, and few can argue that changing mags is accomplished faster with the AR than with most other carbines.
Accuracy - Even my 16" lightweight barrel can hit a soda can at 100 yards with alarming regularity. The seven-lug design, lack of an op-rod, and various other factors (good default sights on carry handle, easy optics mounting on flattops) contribute to this accuracy.
Ease of maintenance - Shotgunning the AR and wiping down all the major components can be accomplished in 10 minutes with little effort. I'm convinced most people overclean their ARs, BTW.
Don't get an HBAR (heavy barrel profile) if you want a light, handy rifle. The lightweight/M4 profiles weigh nearly 2 pounds less, and, IMHO, balance well.
This is dependent on a lot of factors (ammo, the shooter, etc.). Your average Bushie AR will not win at Camp Perry, but it's accurate enough for what most people use them for (plinking, practical shooting competitions, and combat/self-defense).
That malfunction happens once in a while in the military...not often. Twice in 250 is too much. 7 years Army, most of it infantry, and I never had that malfunction, but have cleared it once or twice as a range officer out of someone elses' rifle. Give her another try, I think you just had a lemon.
7 years Army, most of it infantry, and I never had that malfunction, but have cleared it once or twice as a range officer out of someone elses' rifle. Give her another try, I think you just had a lemon.WhoKnowsWho
New member
Sounds like you need to try one of the remade polymer lower receiver rifles from Bushmaster, those things feel very nice, I think even my wife would like it 'cause she thinks the normal AR is too heavy for her. As long as they function well, with Bushmaster behind it, it would be worth a shot.
Incidentally, my one big ergonomic beef with the AR has always been the placement of the charging handle, which made clearing malfs tedious. Since I've gone to a more squared-up stance and added a Badger Tac-Latch, the ability to use the knife edge of the support hand to operate the charging handle has largely nullified that complaint.
Agree the charging handle position is the biggest drawback on AR15, but I think Stoner was going for a design that would close the action to the elements keeping dirt, water, etc. out. The older prototypes had the charging handle in the hole under the carrying handle but that necessitated a slot.
Mulliga said:
Not meaning to troll here whatsoever. I just don't have any experience with post WW2 semi-auto rifles--but aren't all mainstream battle rifles capable of that kind of accuracy? That is, won't the AR's, AK's, HK G36 stay inside ~2-3" at 100yd? I would have thought they'd be way more capable than that; the Garand could do that much 60 years ago. (As I recall, I think 3" at 100yd was the standard at the time, yes?)
Not meaning to troll here whatsoever. I just don't have any experience with post WW2 semi-auto rifles--but aren't all mainstream battle rifles capable of that kind of accuracy? That is, won't the AR's, AK's, HK G36 stay inside ~2-3" at 100yd? I would have thought they'd be way more capable than that; the Garand could do that much 60 years ago. (As I recall, I think 3" at 100yd was the standard at the time, yes?)
I think my accuracy hung arond 3-4" with factory ammo and a low power scope, closer to five with russian steel cased stuff. The magazines I used where foregn military, so maybe that was the problem causing the jams. Relly the weight was what got me. The carbine empty (14.5" shorty AK model) weighed more than a loaded AKM, and the groups weren't any tighter. (my SAR-1 will do 2.5" on a good day, 3.5 on average) I shoot from the left shoulder, so some of the ergonomics don't apply to me. I wonder, do the lighter weight(M-4 or thinner profiled), models keep their groups under 3moa?
TheGunslinger
New member
Pretty much any AR should group 1" to 2" at 100 yards IMO.
While I am not a "tactical" person, I can appreciate the AR-15 for it's many uses. I just sold my RRA 20" A2 but not because of any problems or disliking it. In fact, it never malfunctioned, ever. And, it was guaranteed sub MOA out of the box with a lifetime warranty. Pretty good for a $650.00 rifle. I only used LaBelle 30 round magazines with the Teflon green follower, also. Instead, I sold it because it was worth more than I was getting out of it. In other words, my AK clone fills my need for a defensive rifle quite well and I can beat it up, not clean it, cuss at it, whatever and it doesn't care. My AR needed to be cleaned after each range session because of the design. Not dissing, it, but it's a fact.
Just for the sake of playing devil's advocate: How do you know it needed to be cleaned after every range session ? If it never malfunctioned, ever, then I assume that you never let it get dirty enough to cause a problem. Put another way, if it never malfunctioned, why did it need cleaned ?
Not trying to pull your chain.
Not trying to pull your chain.
It needed cleaning because the bolt assembly and carrier were filthy and I don't put up guns that are filthy. Granted, I swipe a patch or two down the barrel regardless, but the AK (and pretty much all of my other long guns) don't need me to clean the innards. See, now you made me sound like an anti-AR!!
bad_dad_brad
New member
As previously mentioned the AR15 system is very ergonomic, very accurate, very easy to field strip and clean, and very reliable (with good mags) if properly maintained.
I have a Bushy shorty HBAR and at 7.6 pounds it does not seem that heavy to me, I presume because it is very well balanced. The slight heft lends itself to accuracy I think. You want heavy, try lugging an M1 Garand around.
And of course, again as mentioned, you can put all kinds of uppers on it to just about do anything - very smart design in that regard. Try turning your AK into a tack driving varmint rifle.
For about $400 and no FFL I can turn my handy home defense Bushy into one of the most accurate semi-auto varmint/sniper rifles ever made, and then push a couple of pins out and transform it back into home defense mode just like that.
That said, the AK will shoot when dirty, where the AR15 will have issues.
I have a Bushy shorty HBAR and at 7.6 pounds it does not seem that heavy to me, I presume because it is very well balanced. The slight heft lends itself to accuracy I think. You want heavy, try lugging an M1 Garand around.
And of course, again as mentioned, you can put all kinds of uppers on it to just about do anything - very smart design in that regard. Try turning your AK into a tack driving varmint rifle.
For about $400 and no FFL I can turn my handy home defense Bushy into one of the most accurate semi-auto varmint/sniper rifles ever made, and then push a couple of pins out and transform it back into home defense mode just like that.
That said, the AK will shoot when dirty, where the AR15 will have issues.