AR-15 on national TV program...

Mokumbear

New member
There was a TV show tonight that hyped the AR-15 as "America's gun".

Now this seemed misinformed...
It made it seem that it's 'Nam incarnation, the M16 was fantastic.

Everything I have read claims that the M16 was a liability.
It's need for cleanliness made it poorly suited for jungle warfare.

No mention that the AK-47 performed far better in these conditions.

For my money, I prefer the AK.
Simplicity, reliability and able to function in tough conditions with
minimal maintenance.

What's not to love?
 
Last edited:

KyJim

New member
It made it seem that it's 'Nam incarnation, the M16 was fantastic.

Everything I have read claims that the M16 was a liability.
It's need for cleanliness made it poorly suited for jungle warfare.
You need to read some more. Initially, there were issues. Issues were resolved. As far as AR v AK -- that's for someone else to debate.
 

marine6680

New member
Initial reliability problems with the m16 were caused by many things...

No cleaning kits given to troops, and the claim of "self cleaning" was spread around.

An incorrect and dirtier burning gunpowder was used rather than the spec powder.

No chrome lining of critical parts... A cost cutting decision by some pencil pushing types who had no military or weapons experience.


Add it all up and you had a recipe for disaster.

The m16 reputation was damaged by that and hasn't fully recovered. The military went overboard and started preaching cleanliness like gospel. It went above and beyond simple busy work... It was deemed necessary for proper functionality.

We are still fighting that image today... But stories like that of "Filthy 14" show that the AR platform can be run hard and dirty for thousands (in 14's case, tens of thousands) of rounds with no cleaning at all. Just a little oil added to the BCG on occasion.

The AR and AK are both great rifles, and they approach the concept of a fighting rifle from different directions and philosophies. There are strengths and weaknesses to both.

I may end up with an AK pattern rifle sometime, it can complete the set of my SKS and Vz 58... Well I need another mosin to really complete it to my satisfaction.
 

Mokumbear

New member
Sorry, didn't mean to do the AK/AR version of "caliber wars". :rolleyes:

This show seemed biased/sensationalist in that it showed some of the more
hardcore gunners/preppers and lots of comments from the anti-gun side.
There was no middle ground.

Nobody just talked about enjoying owning and shooting one or
home defense in a life threatening situation.
 

globemaster3

New member
A show on the AR being "America's Rifle" with some positive spin would be well deserved and serve to change the general public's (read non-shooting world) opinion of a rifle we enjoy, but the liberals paint in a negative light in laughable ways (the shoulder thingy that goes up)...

However, did we expect anything different from CNBC?
 

jaytothekizzay

New member
I dont hate on the AK but I just find it to be a crude design with crude substandard parts.Designed to be put in the hands of un educated third world people, with no training. Simply to defend and kill
 

tirod

Moderator
Everything I have read claims that the M16 was a liability.
It's need for cleanliness made it poorly suited for jungle warfare.

No mention that the AK-47 performed far better in these conditions.

For my money, I prefer the AK.
Simplicity, reliability and able to function in tough conditions with
minimal maintenance.

What's not to love?

Many won't have seen the program.

Many have used both rifles and the assumption that the AK is somehow "far better" has yet to prove substantially grounded.

Most shooters don't have much training in firearms use, the science of ergonomics, ballistic design, or the methods of production design. Therefore an opinion based on their ownership would be the result.

Rather than delve into the past hundred threads discussing the subject, please consider that the AK is being obsoleted and take out of inventory by most the of the countries that adopted it. The plants that make them largely export to the US or ship to "patriotic liberation fronts" in third world countries.

On the other hand, the M16/M4 is still in inventory and being adopted by more countries - who's military weapons testing and protocols vary quite a bit, but, nonetheless, the results come back that it was selected. And usually to replace an older design similar to the AK or of local manufacture.

Why?

Because how the action works isn't that important as long as it does, and where the controls are much more important than M16 detractors are willing to admit. So much so that most of the combat rifle designs these days copy the M16 control locations - simply because they work better. It fits humans better and they are more intuitive.

Don't take my word for it, try it yourself. Take two tables at a range, have with with ten AK mags loaded one round each and an AK on one, an AR with the same for it on another.

At the start, load each mag and fire at a 50 yard target. Time it. Which is faster and more accurate? The AR will be the large majority of the time.

That may not be "combat" conditions but in the heat of combat you don't need the weapon to impede you with the magazine being inserted on a closed bolt and then having to charge it with the trigger hand to get it back into action. And the extra handling to put the sights back on target will impede your accuracy.

The AK is not the better weapon by a long shot, and the market on accessories is to make it more like the AR. AK owners apparently recognize it. And in open competition where you can shoot the rifle you prefer, the AR dominates. Same in Service Rifle, where it competes with older operating rod designs that we obsoleted. The AR dominates.

But then again most haven't carried it for weeks on end, shot it, built one, or even considered it because their focus isn't on a weapon military professionals recommend and use. If anything, they prefer to ignore professional guidance. It's as if they can fabricate a view of the world where fact doesn't intrude on their fantasy.

No that I haven't tried, but good luck with that. Reality will slap quite a bit of common sense into you after 61 years on this earth.
 

skizzums

New member
I have a good bit of guns, up to 11 now, all different types/platforms. I have a vz58 and a cheap Ar, had an AK and a SKS. I am blown away everytime my sub 500$ AR puts sub 1" groups and never fails to go bang. It's light, It's extremely accurate and its 100% reliable. I wanted to hate the AR, I bashed them constantly when I only had AKs, I talked down on the tiny bullets and the poops where it eats, now that I vhave one, I almost never shoot the ak anymore. The AR is, in my opinion, the be all gun, at least when it comes to guns I can afford.AAnd i really really wanted to hate the Ar15, just cause everyone talked them up so much. America's gun? I think so
 

kraigwy

New member
It made it seem that it's 'Nam incarnation, the M16 was fantastic.

Everything I have read claims that the M16 was a liability.
It's need for cleanliness made it poorly suited for jungle warfare.

No mention that the AK-47 performed far better in these conditions.

Having served as an infantryman in Vietnam (2/502 Inf, 101st Abn Div, 67-68) your claims are totally false.

The M16 had problems, the M16A1 (which was used in Vietnam except for the early years) were indeed quite effective.

The M16A1 was every bit as reliable and a hell of a lot more accurate then AK.

I only fault with the 'A1 is the twist was too slow to allow for heavier bullets.
Added to this was the sights. Elevation adjustments had to be made via screwing he front sight down or up. But with the BSZ of 250 meters it worked well to 300 meters.

Seldom in jungle welfare were targets engaged at that distance.

The M16A2 eliminated both of those (in my opinion) defects. However, as an infantryman who had to carry everything he had (we normally went to the field for 30-60 days at a time), I do like the lighter weight of the A1 over the A2.

Regardless, the M16A1 was highly effective as a jungle combat rifle. It was also used effectively as a sniper rifle.
 

Skans

Active member
There was a TV show tonight that hyped the AR-15 as "America's gun".

I don't get the OP's rant. I agree with this assertion. The AR is currently the single most prolific rifle in the US. Whether you like the AK better or less than the AR, it's not nearly as popular as AR type rifles.
 

steveNChunter

New member
Regardless of which side you're on (I'm in the AR camp myself), what made you think that a show on CNBC about a firearm should be given an ounce of credibility?

On the other hand it is hard to deny that the M16/AR15 is America's gun. Designed, made, and used by Americans. Firing a cartridge of American design. Love it or hate it, it's American as apple pie and baseball.
 

ShaulWolf

New member
Kraigwy, thanks for chiming in and giving us some first hand info. Much appreciated.

Steve, damn straight. US designed, US made, and standard issue across our military. Wildly popular among civilian shooters, and very popular among law enforcement. It's hard to argue that it isn't America's rifle.

If there were any issues with the platform, then they've been pretty well worked out. After reading after action reports from Iraq and Afghanistan, the platform can be considered pretty damn effective. The caliber and ammunition might need tweaking depending on the application, but it's still proven as effective for the majority of the applications used.
 

Dragline45

New member
AR's are only unreliable if you don't clean them with high round counts, and even then all you need is a few drops of lubricant on the bolt and in most cases you are good to go. Unless you get in a firefight that lasts 1000+ rounds without you being able to clean or spray some CLP on your bolt, then the whole argument is pointless. Just look up the filthy 14 BCM test rifle and again say how unreliable the AR platform is.

About the only thing the AK has going for it is it's reliability as they lack in the accuracy department, and seeing how the AR really isn't unreliable, then I don't see what the AK has over the AR. The AR is lighter, a hell of alot more accurate, can reach out to further distances, and flatter shooting.
 

ttarp

New member
The AR15 is most certainly America's rifle, just about everyone has one. Also in my limited experience not many folks off the internet think the AR is unreliable, I really do think its mainly an internet thing, and a few vets I've met and know who didn't have the same experience Kraigwy had in service (thank you sir).

what made you think that a show on CNBC about a firearm should be given an ounce of credibility?

Do you expect someone who is undecided or on the fence about 2A rights or gun ownership to know that? Whether or not a source is credible doesn't often affect whether people believe it or not.
 

dakota.potts

New member
The AR-15 absolutely is America's rifle, at least if the two choices are that or the AK. Which one was designed for American soldiers, produced in America, still used by American military and law enforcement, and was one of the single best selling firearms of 2012?
 
Top