Anyone reloading .44 Special with Titegroup/CFE Pistol?

[Rangerrich99]

First, I did do a search trying to find any info in the forum about my question, and didn't find anything, but if someone can post a link, I'd really appreciate it.

Okay, here's the deal:

Just got a set of Hornady New Dimension .44 mag/special dies, 100 rds. of Mag Tech 240 gr. SJLFT, and some Federal magnum large pistol primers.

Hodgon's data center says the charge for TG is 4.0 grains, and CFE pistol is 5.6 grains to start. I did that, and worked up loads to the middle of the range for both recipes. Neither of my manuals have any data for either of my powders.

Bottom line, my eyeballs tell me there's barely any powder at all in my cases, even with the mid-range charges. And that there is just way too much empty space in my cases. And yes, I double checked; they are .44 Special cases, not mag.

I'm hoping some of you more experienced reloaders can tell me that Hodgon's DC is correct, that it's not a typo, and I have nothing to worry about.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Oh, I probably should mention that I used a Dillon exterminator beam scale to measure my powder charges, checked the scale twice against my RCBS check weights, and just because I like to worry, I ended up weighing my charges twice before seating the bullets.

 

[Bill Siegle]

I have not reloaded with Titegroup myself yet but I have been searching forums for info as I lucked into a couple pounds. I found one post that mentioned 45colt and the poster said something about how small the charges looked in the big cases. I am thinking its like the Unique I've been using and won't be filling the whole case to make weight.

 

[sawdustdad]

Some fast powders don't look like much in the cases--I load 5g of Red Dot in .44spl. It barely covers the bottom of the case..

Or so it seems.

As long as you follow published load data, you should be fine. Just watch out for double charges with such small amounts of powder. It might not be very obvious.

 

[Real Gun]

One of the pleasantries of loading 44 S&W Special is being easily able to see the powder charge, when placing a bullet. Use of low volumetric measure of powder like Titegroup would negate some of that. I am fortunate to have a sufficient supply of other choices, currently trying Unique.

 

[CommandoX]

(Raises hand)

I've used TiteGroup in .44 special with success....

So you know:

I developed loads for a .44 special Charter Arms 3" (no, they don't make em' anymore in 3") that work great for me.

Bullet: Acme 240 gr. LSWC
Coal: 1.480" with a Lee FCD crimp of 1/2 a turn after touching the bullet to make what I call a medium crimp.

I tested powder very carefully metered by hand from 4.4 gr to 4.8 gr. Avg is of 5 shots over a chrono at 13 feet.

4.4 avg 640 fps
4.5 avg 660 fps
4.6 avg 665 fps
4.7 avg 700 fps
4.8 avg 700 fps

Yes, I know what you are thinking....

Any who, I stuck with 4.7 grains for my use IN MY GUN.

Your mileage will vary and I don't recommend ANYTHING I've done to anyone due to laywers and such.

Be that as it may, for me and my gun, it works fine with medium powder burn on the cases and 1" accuracy at 15 yards. For me. With my gun........

Do you hear the "safety cricket" in the room?

 

[Rangerrich99]

Hey guys, thanks again for all the replies. Anyway, after reading your replies I went ahead and pulled the trigger on my reloads through my new S&W Model 69 4 incher. They all went bang, and were very accurate out to 15 yards. The largest group was about 4 inches, and the smallest was a surprising 2 inches, shot off hand. That was the 4.0 grains of Titegroup loading, which felt like .38s through my GP 100.

As I'm reloading these purely for poking holes in paper at the range, I've decided that the mildest loads with Titegroup powder are going to work out the best for me right now, at least until my hand heals in a few weeks.

For those that are curious, the Titegroup is a flake powder, and through my Lee Perfect Powder Measure it meters fairly well with around a plus/minus .1 grains per charge.

The CFE Pistol looks like it could be spherical, at least to my eyeballs. It meters a little more precisely, about plus/minus .05 grains per charge. It does kick a bit more as well at its starting load vs. Titegroup's starting load, but it's also very mild and very accurate (produced a 3 inch group off hand/15 yds with a bad hand).

The slightly warmer loads only opened about a half inch, and that may have been more about the half-healed cut in my hand than the ammo.

Thanks again for your help, gents. Excited to load up a couple hundred cases and get back to the range in a couple weeks.

Peace.

 

[Sevens]

Hey Rich, a couple bits I can maybe help with. First -- had a nice chuckle on your scale. It's the same as mine but it's a Dillon Eliminator. You had me going, I thought maybe your EXTERMINATOR model was CPU-controlled and came with the optional overdrive transmission and intercooled turbochargers!

Never used CFE Pistol, won't comment on that. However, Titegroup has a well-earned reputation for a few key things and one of those things is that it may be one of the LEAST position sensitive powders we've ever had available on the retail market.

Many folks have pondered and worried about the mysterious possibility of a thing that has been dubbed "detonation" whereby a light charge of powder in a large case lays across the bottom of a horizontal cartridge case and the primer flash allows that charge to burn across the entire top of the charge and not incrementally from the bottom of the charge as we typically have or want. This result is some manner of a catastrophic explosion.

The big problem with the theory of detonation is that no lab has ever been able to successfully repeat it so there is a lot of mystery and conjecture surrounding it.

In any case, it's typically not going to be a good or popular idea to make handloads with tiny charges in huge volume cases for that reason, but Titegroup has earned a reputation for not caring even one little bit about all the extra room.

 

[Rangerrich99]

"Hey Rich, a couple bits I can maybe help with. First -- had a nice chuckle on your scale. It's the same as mine but it's a Dillon Eliminator. You had me going, I thought maybe your EXTERMINATOR model was CPU-controlled and came with the optional overdrive transmission and intercooled turbochargers! "

Don't forget the new-for-this-year anti-squat suspension and water-alcohol injection!

Sorry about the mistype. By the time I'd realized my mistake, I no longer could edit my OP.

Both powders seem to work very well, it's just as a newbie reloader 4.1 grains of powder looked so ridiculously inadequate, I was seriously afraid of getting the round stuck half-way down the barrel.

Anyway, as long as I have this thread going, I have another question.

I'm considering switching to a lead cast bullet and I've heard that waxing the slug is necessary? Can someone either explain what this means, whether its necessary, a preferred brand, and where to get the wax? Or suggest a link?

Thanks.

 

[Sevens]

Folks who cast their own lead bullets are aware that they work best when some lube is used with them when shooting. Some tumble-lube them so the entire surface of the slug is coated, but commercially cast bullets that you would buy in a box of 100, 500 or 1000 come pre-lubed, using a hard wax that sits in the grooves of the bullet. The lube is typically colored and often will be red or blue. That lube does the work for you and no prep is necessary on your end.

I actually have a load that I use that works tremendously well for me and may work just as well for you AND offer a side benefit.

I wanted a much more reasonable .44 load for whacking steel plates at my club where magnum loads are not allowed. I did not want the hassle and expense and annoyance of dealing with .44 Special brass, so I used a commercially cast 240gr LSWC and Titegroup in .44 Mag brass and my load shoots beautifully and accurately and clocks 870 FPS in my 7.5" barreled Redhawk.

So it would be faster than what you are running currently, but I'd hedge a bet that it would not be horrendous in a Model 69. My slugs hit steel plates with just a bit more energy than a .45 Auto Hardball would.

My bullet is a Falcon LSWC. Great folks and a fine bullet.
http://www.falconbullets.com/44_Special_44_Mag_s/1832.htm

I load these with 5.7gr of Titegroup in .44 Mag brass.

Why .44 Mag brass?
FAR more plentiful than .44 Special brass. Easier to find, buy, trade, more available, less money and I'm never making adjustments on my dies from Magnum down to Special. I honestly don't even own any .44 Special brass.

It's not like .38 Special and .357 Magnum. There is a hundred guzillion rounds of .38 Special brass floating around the globe. .44 Special is nothing whatsoever like that. Far more .44 Mag brass.

The size definitely makes a difference with some loads and powders, but Titegroup does a fine job here with all the extra space. This has been a great load for me and a lot of fun to shoot.

 

[Sevens]

Your earlier concern of sticking a bullet in the bore is REAL and don't ignore it, it is a very good thing to be aware of -- but also note that a jacketed or plated slug offers tremendous resistance to going down a barrel where a LEAD slug offers far less resistance.

My point? You could take my 5.7gr load and start with it...
and REDUCE that load incrementally and see how they perform for you.

I would be far more wary of reducing a jacketed/plated load than I would be a lead bullet. Sure, you can absolutely stick a lead bullet in your bore, but it is sooooo much easier to tap those out.

 

[CommandoX]

Thanks for that load suggestion Sevens.

I am in the process of developing loads for a RRH that I just acquired and happen to have those bullets!

Can't wait to try em' out in mine.

 

[Rangerrich99]

Sevens;

Thanks for all the great info; going to order some slugs from Falcon next week. Then I'll try that recipe of yours.

I agree with you about .44 Spc. brass, and if I hadn't been collecting the stuff for the last couple years, I wouldn't even be loading the stuff. As it is, I have a little over 500 cases, and I figure for paper-poking purposes I can reload those until they give up the ghost.

Btw, CFE Pistol worked just fine, though I noticed some cases had a rather large scorch mark down one side of some cases. Other than that, they all fired and they were just as accurate as the TG. They also cleaned up just fine, so the scorch marks were just superficial.

Anyway, I ended up loading 60 rds using 4.7 gr. of TG which kicks about the same as .38 spc. factory loads out of my 4 inch GP 100, which is to say, they kick like mice.

And they apparently are reasonably accurate to at least 50 yds. Using the hood of my truck to brace against, I managed to hit my reactive target (about an 8 inch square cube) 3 out of 5 times.

Anyway, thanks again guys, really appreciate the friendliness on this forum.