JackDRipper
New member
Wondered if anyone has any pictures of Kel Tec P-11 vs. the new Kahr PM9. Want to see how much smaller the Kahr actually is than a P11. Thanks,
JR
JR
Any pics of KT P-11 vs. PM9
- Thread starter JackDRipper
- Start date
No photos, sorry
Specs wise they are right on top of each other except the p-11 will hold more rounds and is about $425 cheaper:
P-11 PM9
---------------
width 1.0 0.9
height 4.3 4.0
length 5.6 5.3
barrel 3.1 3.0
weight oz MT 14 14
rounds 10+1 6+1
Darned clever these Koreans....
Pico
Specs wise they are right on top of each other except the p-11 will hold more rounds and is about $425 cheaper:
P-11 PM9
---------------
width 1.0 0.9
height 4.3 4.0
length 5.6 5.3
barrel 3.1 3.0
weight oz MT 14 14
rounds 10+1 6+1
Darned clever these Koreans....
Pico
So for the money, I can get a P-11 or 1/3 of a PM9.
Or, I can get a PM9 or 3 P-11s.
Better yet, in that 9mm weight class and that money, I can get a Rohrbaugh R-9, which weighs 12.3 ounces, 0.81" wide, 4.9" long, 3.6" tall, 2.7" barrel, and holds 6+1 rounds....
Well, I can't get it yet, but soon..., very soon...!
http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/productspg.htm
Or, I can get a PM9 or 3 P-11s.
Better yet, in that 9mm weight class and that money, I can get a Rohrbaugh R-9, which weighs 12.3 ounces, 0.81" wide, 4.9" long, 3.6" tall, 2.7" barrel, and holds 6+1 rounds....
Well, I can't get it yet, but soon..., very soon...!
http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/productspg.htm
Rohrbaugh started production in December to gin up to have 5,000 pistols ready to put into the distributor channels in February and for the reviewers, holster and accessory manufacturers, etc.
According to my "inside" information, the one on the scale is a production gun....
(Previously, they listed the weight as 14 ounces, but that included the magazine. All the other manufacturers list the gun weight without magazines, so Rohrbaugh followed suit, and that's how it "lost" a little weight.)
According to my "inside" information, the one on the scale is a production gun....
(Previously, they listed the weight as 14 ounces, but that included the magazine. All the other manufacturers list the gun weight without magazines, so Rohrbaugh followed suit, and that's how it "lost" a little weight.)
I can't speak for prices in Georgia, but around here, a PM9 is a tad more than double the price of a KelTec, but nowhere near 3 times. ($550 vs. $259)
But, you are comparing apples to oranges.
The specs above show that the Kahr is smaller in every dimension.
When you handle any Kahr, the craftsmanship, engineering, etc. are similar to a S&W or Sig.
A new S&W CS9 costs close to $500, and weighs several ounces more.
A Kahr trigger has to be tried to be believed.
Smoother than some custom revolvers.
A KelTec trigger is just plain awful.
With KelTec, you don't get a gun that "feels" like a $500 gun, but you do get a gun that is an excellent value for the money.
Just my not-so-humble opinion.
But, you are comparing apples to oranges.
The specs above show that the Kahr is smaller in every dimension.
When you handle any Kahr, the craftsmanship, engineering, etc. are similar to a S&W or Sig.
A new S&W CS9 costs close to $500, and weighs several ounces more.
A Kahr trigger has to be tried to be believed.
Smoother than some custom revolvers.
A KelTec trigger is just plain awful.
With KelTec, you don't get a gun that "feels" like a $500 gun, but you do get a gun that is an excellent value for the money.
Just my not-so-humble opinion.
Price
I paid $219 for my P-11. The Kahr Arms web site lists SRP as $660 to $761.
3 x 220 = 660....
I have noticed Kahr weapons selling for near SRP around here. This may vary from location to location. Even if it is only 2 times as much, a smoother trigger is not that much of an inducement to pay twice as much. The size differences are too close to make that much of a difference for concealed carry to me. I agree, though, a Kahr is a much nicer firearm but not nice enough to justify approx $400 more.
I really want to see a comparison test of these two mini-shooters.
Pico
I paid $219 for my P-11. The Kahr Arms web site lists SRP as $660 to $761.
3 x 220 = 660....
I have noticed Kahr weapons selling for near SRP around here. This may vary from location to location. Even if it is only 2 times as much, a smoother trigger is not that much of an inducement to pay twice as much. The size differences are too close to make that much of a difference for concealed carry to me. I agree, though, a Kahr is a much nicer firearm but not nice enough to justify approx $400 more.
I really want to see a comparison test of these two mini-shooters.
Pico
and the P-11 trigger can be improved upon if you wish to do so:
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/triggermods.htm
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/triggermods.htm
Dave Klingenstein
New member
I paid $499 for my Kahr PM9. The quality of the PM9 far exceeds the P-11 in my opinion. I wouldn't pay anymore than $500 for the Kahr though, look around they are out there.
I have owned the Keltec P-11, and it is somewhat closer to the Glock 26 in size, though slightly thinner and lighter. Trigger is awful, but a shoe helps, and sometimes the Keltecs are a bit rough out of the box and need work for reliability.
The PM9 (which I just bought for $519, NIB) is MUCH smaller in length and height, and slightly thinner than the Keltec. Mine has been totally reliable out of the box, with a much better trigger than the KT. In a Hedley pocket holster it is a perfect always gun.
The PM9 (which I just bought for $519, NIB) is MUCH smaller in length and height, and slightly thinner than the Keltec. Mine has been totally reliable out of the box, with a much better trigger than the KT. In a Hedley pocket holster it is a perfect always gun.
How does it shoot?
How does the PM9 shoot compared to the KT? Recoil and accuracy better or worse? Just curious, I like all of the Kahr pistols BTW and didn't mean to put them down or anything.
I get it by now that the trigger is better (it'd have to be) and I accept the real world price advantage is only a factor of 2X. The specs don't suggest it as much smaller but since you guys have held both, I yield.
Pico
How does the PM9 shoot compared to the KT? Recoil and accuracy better or worse? Just curious, I like all of the Kahr pistols BTW and didn't mean to put them down or anything.
I get it by now that the trigger is better (it'd have to be) and I accept the real world price advantage is only a factor of 2X. The specs don't suggest it as much smaller but since you guys have held both, I yield.
Pico
Well, everyone here is welcome to their opinion, and in my opinion, if any gun is worth $400 more than a KelTec, then a Kahr is.
I just paid $550 for my PM9, and you would have to compare it to a chrome slide P11, since the PM9 is stainless.
A chrome P11 will cost close to $250 around here.
I used to think that Kahrs were overpriced, but I also thought Glocks, S&W, Colt, H&K, etc. were overpriced.
I've owned some of the above guns, and now I feel differently.
I've had two P11s, and we currently have two P32s.
Each gun has had a number of problems. The last P11 could not be made to function reliably with Walmart-Winchester ammo.
Both of the P32s are relaible now, after more than one repair each.
The thing I have noticed about my overpriced guns: Glock, Kahr, S&W - THEY WORK RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX!
My life is certainly worth the $300 more that a Kahr cost me.
Well, you are welcome to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.
The smoother trigger results in a much more accurate gun in my hands. (Remember, I've owned two P11s.) And I've seen some people whose hand started shaking uncontrollably after 50 rounds in the KelTec.
With my PM9, or the MK9 I had before, 200rds was no problem at all.
I like to shoot my guns a lot, but I was never sorry when the ammo ran out, when shooting the P11s.
In addition to the trigger, my two Kahrs have shot any ammo I put in them, were more accurate, are easier to shoot, and more fun to shoot.
Add in the fact that they are obviously a more high quality gun, and smaller so they are much easier to pocket carry, and you start to see why they cost more.
Again, just my opinion.
I really can't say how much the trigger has to do with the accuracy, but it must have a lot to do with it. My PM9 shoots very close to a Glock 19 that I had, and the Glock is a much larger gun.
I was never able to shoot a P11 accurately, though some say they can.
In my hands, I am always amazed at how accurate the little Kahr is.
I've owned both, and a few tenths of an inch make a huge difference in the limited real estate of the pocket.
I always considered the P11s to be to big for me to pocket carry.
The Kahr is just small enough to make the grade.
Don't get me wrong.
A KelTec 9mm is one of the best values in the handgun market today. There is no other 9mm in the same price range that could be counted on with your life.
And, their customer service is first rate.
The P32 fills a niche that no other gun can currently come close to.
And, there are rumors of single stack KelTecs on the way. (9mm? .380?? Who knows?)
As I said before, comparing a Kahr to a KelTec is apples to oranges.
Both are "pocket size" 9mm guns, but that is where the similarity ends.
I just paid $550 for my PM9, and you would have to compare it to a chrome slide P11, since the PM9 is stainless.
A chrome P11 will cost close to $250 around here.
I used to think that Kahrs were overpriced, but I also thought Glocks, S&W, Colt, H&K, etc. were overpriced.
I've owned some of the above guns, and now I feel differently.
I've had two P11s, and we currently have two P32s.
Each gun has had a number of problems. The last P11 could not be made to function reliably with Walmart-Winchester ammo.
Both of the P32s are relaible now, after more than one repair each.
The thing I have noticed about my overpriced guns: Glock, Kahr, S&W - THEY WORK RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX!
I've heard it before, but now I'll say it myself: "How much is your life, or those of your loved ones worth?"
My life is certainly worth the $300 more that a Kahr cost me.
Well, you are welcome to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.
The smoother trigger results in a much more accurate gun in my hands. (Remember, I've owned two P11s.) And I've seen some people whose hand started shaking uncontrollably after 50 rounds in the KelTec.
With my PM9, or the MK9 I had before, 200rds was no problem at all.
I like to shoot my guns a lot, but I was never sorry when the ammo ran out, when shooting the P11s.
In addition to the trigger, my two Kahrs have shot any ammo I put in them, were more accurate, are easier to shoot, and more fun to shoot.
Add in the fact that they are obviously a more high quality gun, and smaller so they are much easier to pocket carry, and you start to see why they cost more.
I never enjoyed shooting my P11s. It may have been partly due to the awful trigger pull stressing the hand, but the recoil always seemed sharp to me. It is hard to describe, but the PM9 doesn't seem as "violent" in the hand.
Again, just my opinion.
I really can't say how much the trigger has to do with the accuracy, but it must have a lot to do with it. My PM9 shoots very close to a Glock 19 that I had, and the Glock is a much larger gun.
I was never able to shoot a P11 accurately, though some say they can.
In my hands, I am always amazed at how accurate the little Kahr is.
Yeah, I know, the difference doesn't seem like much. You would really need to stand at the counter and put a KelTec in your pocket, then try a Kahr.
I've owned both, and a few tenths of an inch make a huge difference in the limited real estate of the pocket.
I always considered the P11s to be to big for me to pocket carry.
The Kahr is just small enough to make the grade.
Don't get me wrong.
A KelTec 9mm is one of the best values in the handgun market today. There is no other 9mm in the same price range that could be counted on with your life.
And, their customer service is first rate.
The P32 fills a niche that no other gun can currently come close to.
And, there are rumors of single stack KelTecs on the way. (9mm? .380?? Who knows?)
As I said before, comparing a Kahr to a KelTec is apples to oranges.
Both are "pocket size" 9mm guns, but that is where the similarity ends.
Apples and Oranges...
You're comparing a GOOD price on a KT to the MSRP for Kahr...
Either compare MSRP's, or "Good deals"...
Kel-Tec MSRP's
Blued $314
Park $355
HC $368
Now we're back to 1/2 the $$$.
In my experience, the Kahr is worth twice the $$$, and I've had a lot of bad things to say about Kahr from time to time.
Of course, if I could only AFFORD a $200 pistola, then the KT would be the cat's pajamas. I just wasn't satisfied with the feel of the P11 I owned (for 2 days).
Reply
Very good reponses and excellent information...Thanks, this is exactly what I wanted to hear.
My perception of the mission of the KT or PM9 is use in very close in defense not range accuracy or for any fun to shoot factor. That being said, I think my P-11 is a blast to shoot and the recoil and trigger are not negative factors at all. I have very large hands, large stature, and the little KT is totally concealable and controllable for me. I was surprised at how much better it was to shoot than my little snub nose .38 despite weighing less.
Sorry to hear about your bad experiences with KT, my new P-11 srn 121XXX goes bang with all types of ammo I've fed it including Winchester value pack and spit it all out. No problems at all. Since I can hit my target at 25 to 30 feet with all types of ammo and the gun cycles reliably, I feel I can "risk my life" as you put it with this inexpensive firearm. The KT design is very simple and considering the price it is a great value as you say.
Kahr makes superb weapons and I mean no disrespect. The Kel-Tec is not comparable to the quality you will see if you pay double and get a Glock 26 or PM9 or should we expect it to be. That being said, if I have a choice, I choose to put my major bucks elsewhere and "settle" for a KT P-11.
In addition to using more sophisticated engineering and better raw materials, you also pay Kahr and Glock extra with your higher unit price for the additional quality control to inspect and reject bad units. Production methods are all computer automated anyway for KT, Glock, and Kahr. Paying humans to properly inspect and reject product is a major expense. Kel Tec picks this up later, to everyone's satisfaction, apparently, when some crappy units slip through by fixing what should have done right the first time. I personally think anoher $50 to the price wouldn't hurt if they would finish the gun a little more and tighten up their QC process.
Bottom line is, everybody should thoroughly shoot all new firearms and be sure they function before risking your life with them. Even premium firearms have occasional problems and great weapons like Glocks have to go back home to be fixed.
Pico
I would love to shoot a PM9 at some time and will if I can.
Pico
Very good reponses and excellent information...Thanks, this is exactly what I wanted to hear.
My perception of the mission of the KT or PM9 is use in very close in defense not range accuracy or for any fun to shoot factor. That being said, I think my P-11 is a blast to shoot and the recoil and trigger are not negative factors at all. I have very large hands, large stature, and the little KT is totally concealable and controllable for me. I was surprised at how much better it was to shoot than my little snub nose .38 despite weighing less.
Sorry to hear about your bad experiences with KT, my new P-11 srn 121XXX goes bang with all types of ammo I've fed it including Winchester value pack and spit it all out. No problems at all. Since I can hit my target at 25 to 30 feet with all types of ammo and the gun cycles reliably, I feel I can "risk my life" as you put it with this inexpensive firearm. The KT design is very simple and considering the price it is a great value as you say.
Kahr makes superb weapons and I mean no disrespect. The Kel-Tec is not comparable to the quality you will see if you pay double and get a Glock 26 or PM9 or should we expect it to be. That being said, if I have a choice, I choose to put my major bucks elsewhere and "settle" for a KT P-11.
In addition to using more sophisticated engineering and better raw materials, you also pay Kahr and Glock extra with your higher unit price for the additional quality control to inspect and reject bad units. Production methods are all computer automated anyway for KT, Glock, and Kahr. Paying humans to properly inspect and reject product is a major expense. Kel Tec picks this up later, to everyone's satisfaction, apparently, when some crappy units slip through by fixing what should have done right the first time. I personally think anoher $50 to the price wouldn't hurt if they would finish the gun a little more and tighten up their QC process.
Bottom line is, everybody should thoroughly shoot all new firearms and be sure they function before risking your life with them. Even premium firearms have occasional problems and great weapons like Glocks have to go back home to be fixed.
Pico
I would love to shoot a PM9 at some time and will if I can.
Pico
OK it's 1/2 the price of a PM9
I've already conceded the P-11 is 1/2 the price in the real world not 3X. I'm sure in some gun show or some back alley somewhere, some crook is probably selling a P-11 to somebody at the same price as a PM9 and getting away with it.
I'm not sure I would pay Glock prices for a sub mini pistol in any case if I could afford to or not (I can). If anyone else wants to, it's fine with me and I say go for it, brother.
Pico
I've already conceded the P-11 is 1/2 the price in the real world not 3X. I'm sure in some gun show or some back alley somewhere, some crook is probably selling a P-11 to somebody at the same price as a PM9 and getting away with it.
I'm not sure I would pay Glock prices for a sub mini pistol in any case if I could afford to or not (I can). If anyone else wants to, it's fine with me and I say go for it, brother.
Pico