Any perceivable accuracy difference in .38 special and .357?

[spacecoast]

The question relates to using .38 special wadcutter cartridges in a 6" .357 target revolver (Model 686) vs. using it in a .38 special-only revolver like a Model 14.

Does it matter that the bullet has to jump a larger distance to get to the forcing cone, all other things being equal? Is it perceivable or down in the noise?

 

[steveno]

I have loaded 38 special and 357 magnum with the same load of Unique and a 158 gr swc and it seems to me that the magnum case shoots better than the special case in my M-28's. there isn't as much variation with the magnum case when comparing it to the special case over the chronograph. my thinking is that the longer chamber doesn't agree with the special case. shooting the special case in a M-14 & M-15 and they shoot better than in the M-28's.

 

[aarondhgraham]

I'm just shotgunning here,,,

But it stands to reason that the wadcutter bullet would make a difference there.

I'm not surprised at all with steveno's observation,,,
But I would wager a small amount that the difference in accuracy wouldn't be as apparent with a round nose bullet.

Just wondering is all,,,
I have no empirical evidence to offer.

.

 

[MrBorland]

The general consensus is that categorically, there's no percievable difference for most of us, but on an individual basis, some guns may be more sensitive than others. May have a lot moreto do with how smoothly the bullet enters & leaves the throat, rather than distance. Some .38 may have a rougher transition than a .357mag.

FWIW, here are 2 targets shot the same day using the same HBWC load. Both were shot unsupported 15 yards, 5 rounds, double action. The first was shot with a 4" 686 .357mag and the 2nd with a 6" K-38 .38spl. Aside from that called .357 shot, and there's not much difference.

 

[pythagorean]

This question comes up a lot. Theoretically the lack of the "jump" in a .38 with a .38 wadcutter or other is supposed to be more accurate than having a .357 with the "jump" to the rifling inside the bore.

However, all revolvers demand the bullet "jump" from cylinder to bore throat anyway. And what's wrong with a little "free bore" when you consider Weatherby Rifles and such.

In practice I've actually had more accuracy using true .357 chambered revolvers when shooting .38 wadcutters. I've read and heard similar reports throughout time.

For this, I'd be safe to say the difference between a .357 or .38 in accuracy when using .38 cartridges is either nill or actually in favor of the .357.

 

[stevieboy]

Theory aside, I've never noticed a difference. I've fired .38s and .357s from my Magnum revolvers. All of my guns are more accurate than I am, and I would wager, more accurate than most shooters, regardless whether they are firing .38s or .357s.

 

[pythagorean]

...which brings up the meaninglessness of the "rare" .38 Special Pythons.

 

[44 AMP]

As others have said, in theory the longer bullet jump shooting .38s in a .357 chamber should mean they are less accurate than when shot in a .38SPL chamber.

Reality proves that they may be less accurate, but often aren't. It is a matter of the ammo, and the individual gun it is fired out of. Comparing the accuracy of a .357 revolver with a .38 revolver does not adress the issue, as the two different guns are, well...two different guns!

To see if there is any significant difference in your gun, fire the load using both .38 and .357 brass. In the same chambers, you can tell if your gun prefers one or the other. Most don't seem to care. But there are some that will show a better group with one case length over the other. Testing is the only way to know.

...which brings up the meaninglessness of the "rare" .38 Special Pythons.

The .38 Spl Pythons are target guns. I have a friend who has one. Very nice gun, built for the best shooting .38 it could be. If you are a paper puncher, and love the Python, having a magnum get you nothing. Again, the theory says a .38 Python should be more accurate than shooting .38s in a .357 Python. I don't think it actually worked out that way, though. Probably why .38 Pythons are rare. Not much demand. Wouldn't call them "meaningless", though. Not any more meaningless than a S&W model 52, or any other gun set up for target use, excusively. They don't all have to be duty sidearm capable, you know. Some are just for fun.

 

[WVfishguy]

I think it depends on the gun. Some .357s are fine with .38s, some are not.

 

[spacecoast]

Thanks for all the well-reasoned replies, everyone. Got me to thinking about loading and testing wadcutters in .357 cases as well. When shooting one-handed at 50/25 yards, I need all the legally obtained advantage I can get...

That's some fine shooting, MrBorland.

Much appreciated!

 

[MrBorland]

Got me to thinking about loading and testing wadcutters in .357 cases as well.

Yep - seems the only way to know for sure. Update us with a range report when you've finished your testing - I'd be interested in your experience.

When shooting one-handed at 50/25 yards, I need all the legally obtained advantage I can get...

If you're shooting bullseye, you probably know this already, but also be sure your gun is in perfect running order as well - perfect timing, 6 good chamber/bore alignments, good crown, bore, etc. If you haven't slugged the barrel & throats, that'd be good to do, too. Having the throat, barrel & bullets mis-sized can affect accuracy. If you're currently using DEWCs, maybe try some HBWCs as well.

 

[Old Grump]

Seems to be a 'What gun is it' issue for me. The Ruger Blackhawk 357 didn't like wadcutters, shot them really high and in a disgustingly Laredo group even at short distances but the Dan Wesson 357 shoots them just fine. Both guns actually preferred round nose and SWC better than the WC. My friends old 1957 era model 10 38 spcl with its 4" barrel is dead on accurate with either. Science Schmience, its all magic to me and every gun has its own rules for what it will eat happily.

 

[HighValleyRanch]

When shooting one-handed at 50/25 yards, I need all the legally obtained advantage I can get...

Looks like you are shooting Bullseye!

For years I used a Smith 586 4" .357 for one of my centerfire guns.
It shot extremely well with the .38 HBWC both at the short and long lines.
I never noticed any loss in accuracy....other than me.

Are you going to use it for conventional or distinguished?
Single action or double action for T&R?

 

[spacecoast]

HVR -

Yes, I have started shooting the local NRA 900 outdoor event here on Saturday mornings. I'm not familiar with conventional vs. distinguished so maybe you can enlighten me. I used my 6" 686-4 with my LRN 158 handloads the first time out and scored 644, switched to my 5-1/2" Ruger Mark II Target for the second trip and improved to 698. I now have some target grips for that pistol so I think I can do even better with it in the future.

I used DA (except for the first shot) to shoot the T&R the first time out, and didn't do badly, but will definitely switch to SA for at least the TF if not the RF, also for RF if I feel comfortable that I can fit all 5 shots into 10 seconds.

Tomorrow I'm taking a kid with me who needs to shoot the .22, so I'm back to the .38 special. Not that I mind, it's a fine gun and a lot of fun regardless. I'm working on picking up another .22 so I can take both him and his brother at the same time, not to mention pandering to my gun addiction

 

[HighValleyRanch]

Conventional is the standard bullseye rules, and you can have mods to your revolver, including anatomical style grips which help in the recoil, grip and cocking single action.

With DR (Distinguished revolver) you are limited to a stock gun that has to use more combat style grips. Single action cocking is allowed as well.
The gun can have a trigger job, but all parts must be stock.
Same course of fire. Score are typically lower for the DR matches than a revolver used in Conventional with target grips.

In the old days, many, many shooters used the revolvers for their centerfire matches. The Colt Officers Match and Smith and Wesson K-38 were the main ones used. Many of them were modified to single action only. My father used a short cock Colt Officers match for his CF gun.

Using a revolver is certainly a challenge, but mainly in the Rapid fire stages.
You have to get off the first shot right as the target turns, cock while in recoil, come back down and you have one second to take aim and repeat.
If done right, the last shot will happen right as the target turns.
Skidders are common! Target grips definitely help control the gun during the cocking, because the gun will be shifting and that all will affect your scores.

 

[woodguru]

Edge to .38 due to velocity?

I used to shoot an 8" Python, I hunted with higher velocity .357 loads. In developing those loads I used to bench test for group size. Basically I was willing to drop the velocity to close the group size up two or three inches at 50 yards because I have shot deer out to about 125 yards with that gun and pinpoint accuracy was part of being able to do that. My friend advocated power over group size and loaded heavier than I did, he liked to push max pressures.

While the .357's could be loaded that shot very nice groups I could get better ones with a softer .38 target load. In fact that pistol would shoot incredibly tight groups with a .38 load.

This was that pistol and every pistol seems to have it's quirks, but that velocity thing for target shooting may hold with a lot of pistols. My guess is that anyone looking for target group size may find an edge with the .38. My favorite alltime target pistols were the S&W model 52 wadcutters, and the .38 Super is known for tight groups as well.

Added:
While I've heard many guys with .357's who won't shoot .38's in them because of carbon build up that could supposedly keep .357's from chambering well, I never had any problems shooting .38's in a .357. They clean up just fine. I've never had many safe queens, I bought my Pythons and Diamondbacks to shoot and shooters they are.

 

[spacecoast]

HVR -

Thanks for the info. My revolvers are stock, but I do like and use the Hogue rubber grips with the finger notches. Does that qualify for DR or would it be CR, and I would have to get some S&W grips for DR?

Thanks...

 

[HighValleyRanch]

The hogues with finger grooves are perfectly fine for distinguished revolver competition. Everything eligible for DR is OK for conventional , but not the other way around. The grips have to be mirror image of each side, and no flare at the bottom. Slight palm swell is OK. Can come back in at the bottom.

Your club is shooting one handed, right?
I see many clubs that allow two handed bullseye, but they are not legal for NRA sanctioned matches.

Your 686 should serve you well in these competitions.
Plus you have the added satisfaction of going old school.

I myself am slowly changing over and going back to shooting revolvers only for bullseye. I have a SW model 17 (.22)with anatomical grips, and am making some for my Colt Official police (.38 spl) this weekend as well.

 

[spacecoast]

Your club is shooting one handed, right?
I see many clubs that allow two handed bullseye, but they are not legal for NRA sanctioned matches.

Yes, we are shooting one-handed. My club is definitely "old school". There are several guys who know the rules forwards and backwards and don't hesitate to make sure they are enforced to the last jot and tittle.

I struggled some this morning, and only scored 641 with the 686 shooting my wadcutters. I had a young shooting friend with me and he started off by shooting 19 rounds in the first slow fire period, and not shooting "slow" at all. When I looked over and realized what he was doing, I stopped and had to chastise him a bit, and that kinda threw me off. Plus I blew my first shot, completely missing, and really never recovered during the slow fire phase. Things improved to near-normal at 25 yards but I never really felt comfortable out there. It's tough being both a coach and a competitor, that's for sure.

 

[DG45]

There are really two issues: 1. Is the 38 Special bullet as accurate as the 357 bullet when fired from a 357 revolver, and 2. Is the 38 Special bullet as accurate when fired from a 357 revolver as it is when fired from a 38 Special revolver?

ASSUMING ALL ELSE IS EQUAL, ie., barrel lengths, weight, etc.:

Obviously there is a human factor that cannot be quantified that would affect results.

I'd expect that the blast and recoil of a 357 cartridge would affect the human shooting it more than the blast and recoil of a 38 Special cartridge would.

I'd expect that the long "jump" from revolver chamber to cylinder cone that the 38 Special bullet must make when fired fired from a 357 revolver would detrimentally affect its accuracy, perhaps not greatly, but at least somewhat.

I'd think that the reduced blast and recoil of the 38 Special cartridge would probably more than offset the detriment of the long bullet jump, and would result in better accuracy shooting 38 Specials in a 357 than shooting 357's in them.

However, I believe the best accuracy of all would come from using 38 Special ammunition in a 38 Special revolver. You'd have the same mild blast and recoil as a 38 Special fired in a 357, but no long cylinder to forcing cone jump.

I have no test results to back any of this up but it seems like common sense to me. I realize that will not be acceptable to those on the forum who are mathematicians.