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Any one with quick load help me estimate the pressure?
- Thread starter CCCLVII
- Start date
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
You must be way over pressure I guess.
For comparison:
I use 148 grain Wadcutter (Lee TL design)
4.0 grains VV N330
FOR AN 357 MAGNUM (not 38 spl pressure gun)
and get pressure signs like flat primers (but no bulges nor sticky extraction).
Your W231 powder is even quicker burning as my VV N330 and your bullet is 246 grains? (which mold or bullet do you use?).
I never have seen 246 grains bullets for an 38 spl.
To match that bullet with the 38 spl 17000 psi pressure you may be at most 400 fps of velocity!??!?
For each additional 30 grains of the bullet let's assume you loose 125 fps. An factory 158 grain has 770 fps to get to about 208 ft/lbs of energy.
More or less with an 246 grain lead bullet you should be within 38 spl pressures at an velocity of 400 fps.
That gives you an energy Level of about 87 ft/lbs a bit more than of an 22 LR from an pistol.
This above is just my idea and reasoning not at all an reloading recipe! I recommend you not to load the 246 grain bullet.
For comparison:
I use 148 grain Wadcutter (Lee TL design)
4.0 grains VV N330
FOR AN 357 MAGNUM (not 38 spl pressure gun)
and get pressure signs like flat primers (but no bulges nor sticky extraction).
Your W231 powder is even quicker burning as my VV N330 and your bullet is 246 grains? (which mold or bullet do you use?).
I never have seen 246 grains bullets for an 38 spl.
To match that bullet with the 38 spl 17000 psi pressure you may be at most 400 fps of velocity!??!?
For each additional 30 grains of the bullet let's assume you loose 125 fps. An factory 158 grain has 770 fps to get to about 208 ft/lbs of energy.
More or less with an 246 grain lead bullet you should be within 38 spl pressures at an velocity of 400 fps.
That gives you an energy Level of about 87 ft/lbs a bit more than of an 22 LR from an pistol.
This above is just my idea and reasoning not at all an reloading recipe! I recommend you not to load the 246 grain bullet.
Last edited:
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
It may work dough!
The Lyman 44th reloading handbook states: for 38 spl
195 grain lead bullet
Unique max 4.1 grain 772 fps = 258 ft/lbs
SR 7625 max 3.8 grain 675 fps = 197 ft/lbs
Those are the closest to your powder.
That bullet with an case Diameter of 45 acp may work safely due to bigger Exit Surface and therefore pressure Distribution.
The Lyman 44th reloading handbook states: for 38 spl
195 grain lead bullet
Unique max 4.1 grain 772 fps = 258 ft/lbs
SR 7625 max 3.8 grain 675 fps = 197 ft/lbs
Those are the closest to your powder.
That bullet with an case Diameter of 45 acp may work safely due to bigger Exit Surface and therefore pressure Distribution.
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
Sorry.
I googled the 264 grain bullet for the 38 spl case and can NOT find any info about that. Seems to not exist.
Did you mean 164 grain instead? You are talking about 38 spl right?
I googled the 264 grain bullet for the 38 spl case and can NOT find any info about that. Seems to not exist.
Did you mean 164 grain instead? You are talking about 38 spl right?
Bullet is 1.038 inches long.
At that length, it might well be a 246 grainer.
In 38 Special, I've never heard of a slug heavier than 200 grains (doesn't mean there isn't one). 246 used to be the old standard round nose slug weight for 44 Special.
At any rate, my QL doesn't have any data for a 246, so I would have no way to check it. That said, 5 grains of W231 sounds like an awful lot for such a heavy slug. A lesser quantity of a slower propellant would most likely be in order.
WARNING: What is being discussed here is UNPUBLISHED LOAD DATA and is not verified according to any scientific sources. This is for informational purposes only. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME! I and TFL take ZERO responsibility for your use of this information
246 gr. slug sounds awefully close to a Lyman 375248 mould slug dropping a touch light due to alloy differences. That would be a slug for a 38-55 or 375 Winchester. Lyman calls out for a 249 gr. drop using #2 alloy for that slug.
That said.. according to my Winchester 12 Ed. load guide using a 200 gr. lead slug with W231 the max load would be 5.5 gr. for 42,500 CUP and 1060 fps out of an 8 3/8" test barrel.
If I were to back off and extrapolate (we know that this is IFFY STUFF) with a 158 gr. lead the load would be 6.7 gr for the same pressure and 1275 fps. That suggests that 4.3 gr. would be max. ASSUMING a linear correlation which we know is not the case. If it were linear it would reduce velocity to 845 fps from an 8 3/8" test barrel. HOWEVER... ABOUT THAT 375 DIAMETER! Nuff said.
That is the only slug I can find that even comes close to matching what you are talking about and could remotely be confused with a 357 slug.
This information is for academic purposes only.
246 gr. slug sounds awefully close to a Lyman 375248 mould slug dropping a touch light due to alloy differences. That would be a slug for a 38-55 or 375 Winchester. Lyman calls out for a 249 gr. drop using #2 alloy for that slug.
That said.. according to my Winchester 12 Ed. load guide using a 200 gr. lead slug with W231 the max load would be 5.5 gr. for 42,500 CUP and 1060 fps out of an 8 3/8" test barrel.
If I were to back off and extrapolate (we know that this is IFFY STUFF) with a 158 gr. lead the load would be 6.7 gr for the same pressure and 1275 fps. That suggests that 4.3 gr. would be max. ASSUMING a linear correlation which we know is not the case. If it were linear it would reduce velocity to 845 fps from an 8 3/8" test barrel. HOWEVER... ABOUT THAT 375 DIAMETER! Nuff said.
That is the only slug I can find that even comes close to matching what you are talking about and could remotely be confused with a 357 slug.
This information is for academic purposes only.
Last edited:
disseminator
New member
Yep, 60303psi is what I came up with.
Why would you do this?
Just, don't.
Why would you do this?
Just, don't.
I used the bullet metrics wizard in QL and allowed that most of the .38 Special cases I see have about 1 grain more water capacity than the QL default. I ran it with both the W231 and HP38 models, as these powders are actually the same thing in real life (canister grade St. Marks OBP231), but Herr Broemel measured two different lots for the QL database that had slightly different characteristics, so running both provides a degree of the spread you might expect. I got 48,731 psi for one and 50,396 psi for the other. It looks like the maximum for this powder is about 2.6 grains for SAAMI .38 Special spec with a magnum primer and 2.9 with a mild primer, and 3.0 grains for CIP .38 Special spec, and 3.2 grains for CIP with a mild primer.
It should be pointed out that QuickLOAD has no primer argument. As the author explains, magnum primers can sometimes raise pressure, but sometimes lower it, depending on special circumstances, so the program just assumes the mildest possible primer. I have seen everything from no-change to and increase in pressure with magnum primers of about 10%, so I added 10% to allow for a worst case magnum primer.
It should be pointed out that QuickLOAD has no primer argument. As the author explains, magnum primers can sometimes raise pressure, but sometimes lower it, depending on special circumstances, so the program just assumes the mildest possible primer. I have seen everything from no-change to and increase in pressure with magnum primers of about 10%, so I added 10% to allow for a worst case magnum primer.
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
I wonder how much velocity the 264 grain bullet gets in the 38 spl using 3.0 grain of W321 powder as Maximum.
It must be around 400 fps.
Using SR7625 with 3.0 grains for the 195 grain bullet gets you according to Lyman 44th Reloading handbook 478 fps which translates to 99 ft/lbs of energy for the 38 spl
Even with the max load of 3.8 grain you get only 197 ft/lbs of energy (380 acp Level); not nearly the 250 ft/lbs you want in an 38 spl.
That I consider an "mouse fart" round.
There seems to be an considerable trade off between bullet weight and velocity.
This trade-off relationship interests me particularly as well since in my Situation more bullet weight is for me cheaper than adding powder (more velocity).
Seems there is a reason why the 158 grain bullet is top weight for 38 spl.
It must be around 400 fps.
Using SR7625 with 3.0 grains for the 195 grain bullet gets you according to Lyman 44th Reloading handbook 478 fps which translates to 99 ft/lbs of energy for the 38 spl
Even with the max load of 3.8 grain you get only 197 ft/lbs of energy (380 acp Level); not nearly the 250 ft/lbs you want in an 38 spl.
That I consider an "mouse fart" round.
There seems to be an considerable trade off between bullet weight and velocity.
This trade-off relationship interests me particularly as well since in my Situation more bullet weight is for me cheaper than adding powder (more velocity).
Seems there is a reason why the 158 grain bullet is top weight for 38 spl.
OAL of 1.6 inches is too long for a .38 Special. Max SAAMI OAL is 1.550". Assuming you're thinking of firing this in a revolver, it won't fit. Cylinder will likely jam.
And you'll have approximately .058" in the case for powder. Highly unlikely 5 grains of any powder will fit in a space that small. SAAMI max case length of 1.155" minus the max rim thickness of .059" minus your 1.038" bullet length. Lot depends on the type of bullet though.
W231 doesn't need magnum primers either
And you'll have approximately .058" in the case for powder. Highly unlikely 5 grains of any powder will fit in a space that small. SAAMI max case length of 1.155" minus the max rim thickness of .059" minus your 1.038" bullet length. Lot depends on the type of bullet though.
W231 doesn't need magnum primers either
Jim Watson
New member
I sure hope he is shooting it in a Magnum revolver, a good stout one like a Ruger.
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
If the 38 spl has a Overall length of 1.138"
and
my deep seated bullets seat at 0.688"
then
you have an empty space for powder of 0.45" where 7.5 grain water weight enters. Same powder space you have with an 9mm Luger.
I have no Problem load it with 4.0 grain and have loaded 9mm Lugers as well with 4.5 grain of powder.
The OP is for sure not seating deep his heavy heavy bullet and therefore easily could fit 7 grains of powder in the 38 spl case.
and
my deep seated bullets seat at 0.688"
then
you have an empty space for powder of 0.45" where 7.5 grain water weight enters. Same powder space you have with an 9mm Luger.
I have no Problem load it with 4.0 grain and have loaded 9mm Lugers as well with 4.5 grain of powder.
The OP is for sure not seating deep his heavy heavy bullet and therefore easily could fit 7 grains of powder in the 38 spl case.
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
Here the data for the 357 Magnum case to compare it to the 246 grain cast bullet.
{Edit: Please see the board rules on posting copyrighted materials. We are considering some changes, but for now, unless something was published before 1926 it cannot be certain to be allowed to post. With load data you can, however, type the data out in your own format.}
The Minimum of the marked powder load gives an 38 spl energy Level of 252 ft/lbs and the Maximum an energy of 346 ft/lbs (9mm Luger Levels).
Even for an 357 Magnum gun there are definetelly diminished Returns with an 195 grain heavy heavy bullet.
So even more for an bullet of 246 grain weight.
{Edit: Please see the board rules on posting copyrighted materials. We are considering some changes, but for now, unless something was published before 1926 it cannot be certain to be allowed to post. With load data you can, however, type the data out in your own format.}
The Minimum of the marked powder load gives an 38 spl energy Level of 252 ft/lbs and the Maximum an energy of 346 ft/lbs (9mm Luger Levels).
Even for an 357 Magnum gun there are definetelly diminished Returns with an 195 grain heavy heavy bullet.
So even more for an bullet of 246 grain weight.
Jim Watson
New member
Jerry Miculek and friends shot bowling pins with a 230 gr full wadcutter .357. I don't know his load but I bet it wasn't 231.
https://www.pennbullets.com/38/CAS-38.html
https://www.pennbullets.com/38/CAS-38.html
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
You can definetelly do it according to Jim Watsons post.
The powder to use however is more in the ballpark of 2400 and towards rifle powder.
The webpage on Watsons post states some load data as well. True Blue and Accurate #9 they use as powder.
And you can get with max load with the slowest powder using the 230 grain bullet an energy of 373 ft/lbs with an pressure of 20000 psi.
Use this data as my opinion only. At your own risk. But definetelly that stated in the webpage seems to be real world applications.
The powder to use however is more in the ballpark of 2400 and towards rifle powder.
The webpage on Watsons post states some load data as well. True Blue and Accurate #9 they use as powder.
And you can get with max load with the slowest powder using the 230 grain bullet an energy of 373 ft/lbs with an pressure of 20000 psi.
Use this data as my opinion only. At your own risk. But definetelly that stated in the webpage seems to be real world applications.