Any motorcyclist close call/draw on a raging cager?

[Shorts]

Hi folks, I got to thinking about this scenario after reading an article on a motorcycle forum I'm a member of.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/06/BAGQ6LKAAK4.DTL

Those of you that do ride motorcycles understand that bikes and cagers sometimes do not mix. There are incidents of road rage, and sometimes people get hurt, regardless of who's to blame. In this case, the rider was assaulted and left for dead. The first thing I thought of was "Man, that guy should have been carrying".

Many folks here carry daily, that includes in the car or riding. Leads me to my question, bikers, have you ever had to draw on a raging cager? No, not as a threat, not as a brandish while actually moving down the road, not before you've already tried to leave the situation - ie, you have done everything right to leave or get away from the situation. Have you drawn your ccw as a rider? I'm talking about, at a stop, gas station, or side of the road where an angry person has followed and approached you person to person and it has escalated to the point of decision time - NOT WHILE RIDING DOWN THE ROAD.



I don't mean to turn this into an argument between cars and motorcycles. I know many of us who ride bikes also drive cars. There are good apples and bad apples in both. I do mean to ask the RIDERS if there was ever a day, as a rider, that they were threatened enough while stopped that they needed to draw?

 

[Trip20]

NOT WHILE RIDING DOWN THE ROAD

How might answers from bikers differ from other members of society once the bike is out of the equation?

 

[Bud Helms]

Many folks here carry daily, that includes in the car or riding.

In Misawa? Japan? You are kidding! No way!

BTW, Konnichiwa, Shorts!

To answer your question: Not exactly, but close.

My experience has been that the cager misunderstands the motorcyclist's imperative of how to drive defensively and it is taken as aggression. As a motorcyclist, you either assert control or you get controlled and that is not acceptable. Cagers don't understand that the average motorcycle is like a high performance sports car. The horsepower to weight ratio is way above what most people realize. So cutting over a lane and hammering the throttle is not as dangerous as some think, because if your already accelerating prior to the lane change, there's not the risk of impact that there would be if you were in a cage. Most cars/trucks (cages) can't accelerate the way a bike can. This is related from the aspect of a motor's performance capabilities, and does not take into account the lack of skill a motorcyclist may have. If you ride much, you know this.

Most of the altercations I've experienced have been underway. Those are resolved quickly. When a cager follows you off the right-of-way to a stop, things have probably gone bad. At that point I don't usually speak until the cager has finished speaking. Completely finished. Questions and answers don't work. That angers the cager and validates his attitude. Silence worries them unless they are already over the edge. Alertness is key. If they start to rumble around in pockets or under shirts, it's time to assert, strongly. Action and awareness counts the most.

The only time I have ever come close to drawing in a cage rage situation was an interrupted presentation ... all except pulling the tool from it's holder. At that point it was over. But understand, I had not spoken a word. Speaking takes the shine off your intent ... for you and the perp. Don't talk. Don't wave your hands in defense. Aggress. The effect is unmistakable and lasting. But I recommend not bluffing. Once it's on, it's on. Otherwise don't carry. But in Japan! I am amazed.

Trip20, the answer should be the same, bike or no. Shorts is experiencing cagers' attitude towards bikers (or motorcyclists), not asking whether she should react differently because she rides. You are vulnerable as a rider, until you get stopped and off the scooter.

 

[Bender711]

When he says here I think he means on this fourm.

 

[Trip20]

Trip20, the answer should be the same, bike or no. Shorts is experiencing cagers' attitude towards bikers (or motorcyclists), not asking whether she should react differently because she rides. You are vulnerable as a rider, until you get stopped and off the scooter.

After reading your post I now see what she may be seeking as far as experiences.

However, since she stressed the 'not while riding' aspect, it seemed it was more a thread about bikers vs cagers (and the attitude you mention in your post), than about drawing as it relates to one's bike.

The confrontation between a cager and biker is no different than any other confrontation once the bike and cage are no longer a factor (i.e., at a stop, at the gas station...etc). That's why I asked my question. Hope it wasn't taken in a flippant manner.

 

[Bud Helms]

Bender, I didn't even think of that. You're probably right.

Trip, here's a quote:

Leads me to my question, bikers, have you ever had to draw on a raging cager? No, not as a threat, not as a brandish while actually moving down the road, not before you've already tried to leave the situation - ie, you have done everything right to leave or get away from the situation. Have you drawn your ccw as a rider? I'm talking about, at a stop, gas station, or side of the road where an angry person has followed and approached you person to person and it has escalated to the point of decision time - NOT WHILE RIDING DOWN THE ROAD.

You noted:

The confrontation between a cager and biker is no different than any other confrontation once the bike and cage our out of the situation (i.e., at a stop, at the gas station...etc).

Well, I kind of saw this part: "... draw on a raging cager?" and just assumed she meant what she said. 'Guess you have to ride to understand that the attitude on the road gets carried to the rest stop. These people are still driving when they pull off to confront that stupid biker. But still, the use of deadly force is a trip you don't want to take unless you are in a corner and can't get out.

[Edit: flippant ... I didn't take it that way. ]

 

[VIEJO]

I quit ridin' on two tires in 1972 for reasons of my own, related in part to my wife being an Emergency Room Respitatory Therapist who treated two hundred dying bikers in her career and she asked (not told) me to PLEASE retire the chopper.

She just now, last month told me it's cool to get a little 1200 Sportster when I'm ready. She made peace with Harley Davidson.

I had cars follow me, badger me, throw stuff at me, etc ................ and I never had to pull, at the worst of times. I am (was) a battle hardened GI, but always tried to keep a conciliatory nature just because I had a belly full of fighting. I was always able to talk them down and I'm glad. I'm closing on age 60 and I'm free on the streets. I ain't in prison.

 

[Trip20]

Well, I kind of saw this part: "... draw on a raging cager?" and just assumed she meant what she said. 'Guess you have to ride to understand that the attitude on the road gets carried to the rest stop.

I purchased my first bike in January of this year. In fact it's getting the clutch replaced this Thursday (don't ask). I have no problem understanding that the attitude gets carried to the rest stop.

My point was that it seemed odd to look for experiences of other riders only, considering riding has nothing to do with the parameters of the scenario.

Asking in general about experiences of TFL members who've had to draw with out the added criteria of them having to be a biker (i.e., one non-raging cager drawing on a raging cager), would draw equally relevant experience to discuss.

Anyway, this discussion isn't going where Shorts had intended so I'll back out since I have no relevant experience to put forth. At least our discussion kept it at the top of the list.

 

[Shorts]

Whoa guys, I see we're all reading the literal words, scooch off the path a bit


Bud, good explanation on your experience. You're reply is exactly the kind I was looking for, just experiences.

Trip20, your reply did sound flippant, this isn't my first rodeo. But to answer, the reactions aren't different because of what vehicle or bike you're riding. As you came to, I am just looking for experiences.

No, no handguns in Japan, that is not news to me. Thanks again for reminding me of what I don't have, what I don't get to see, use or handle until year 2009! Because I have temporarily left the US does not mean I quit thinking about it all together. I do plan to return and hit the ground running on all the things I had to put away for this tour.


DH and I just started riding this past March. We did so because 1) we've always wanted to, and 2) we didn't have guns as a hobby so we NEEDED a new fix. You gyus wanna see a one-armed motorcycle setup???

Riding is a whole new experience. Bud hit the nail on the head with "a driver misunderstands a motorcyclist's imperative to drive defensively". For those who have never ridden, they don't understand 'the motorcycle world'. Riding is risky, no matter how much you minimize. In learning these new rules and etiquettes and lifestyle, I'm finding there are a lot of misconceptions and stereotypes, just as there are in the gun world. Both hobbies are misunderstood, but they both have their loyal followers who are the good folks to be around.

Side note:
I find it odd, I have several forums I frequent, for various hobbies 4x4s, motorcycling, guns, model airplanes....all these thoughts and experiences are all mixed up in my mind and all do affect each other, yet they all co-exist. When I go to one forum and try to cross-breed one hobby with another, the dialect of each forum masks the true meaning of my intention, just general thoughts and discussion, not to knit-pick technicalities.


Edit: did I put this in the wrong forum?


Where is mgdavis?

 

[OneInTheChamber]

I've never ridden on the street, but have raced motocross my whole life and can say this:

A person on a motorcycle should never be in a lethal force encounter off of his/her bike because they should never stop. A bike will easily out manuever and out run a car. You can go places a car can't. You can go faster than a car can. Why pull over and risk a confrontation? You risk the possibility of getting run over a "raging cager".

Compared to getting hit by a car; a .45 is a pea shooter.

 

[Trip20]

Shorts, in jest I just can't help but to request you start a thread in Handguns General Forum asking what is the best caliber for Raging Cagers.

Pretty please?

 

[Shorts]

Well sometimes you do need to stop. Gas station, lunch, rest room break. You don't always know what cager is mad at you and who isn't.

Though, like you said, if one is aware that does help you make the escape.

Trip, did you take offense to the phrase "raging cager"? You shouldn't, and if you did, quit being so passive-aggressive about it and say it. Raging cager describes the angry driver in a vehicle who's trying to harm you. A cager is simply a driver in a car. A stupid cager is a stupid drive of a vehicle who is on the cell phone, reading the paper, and basically inattenttive to driving and the others around them.

Does the term 'sheeple' ring a bell?

 

[Trip20]

Shorts - I thought the was used to signify no ill intent. I was honestly poking fun at the often repeated, "what's the best caliber for _____" threads, not the term 'raging cager.'

I'm not even sure how I could become offended by the term even if I tried.

If I've got a problem, I'll let you know don't worry. There's not much passive about my personality.

 

[Shorts]

Dude, that's what I was confused about - "Trip20 didn't use to be much of a pitbull when I was around alot...what in the world?". I apologize for coming off harsh.

lol I'll read the smileys better

 

[mgdavis]

Well, here I am. I don't know how much help I'll be. As far as carrying while riding, I keep my Glock 19 in a Maxpedition Jumbo Versipack when I'm out running around, or in my backpack if I'm wearing that (next to inaccesible that way, unfortunatly). I've never had a confrontation while carrying, I tend to practice avoidance. The worst agressive driver to date was the guy who passed me in the dark on a curvy road for doing the speed limit last Friday.

I'm not sure I'd be able to manipulate my zipper and weapon well with my riding gloves on (makes note to try this in the morning). The setup I have is the best I got at the moment. I don't think my IWB carry would work, I'd be nervous of my jacket riding up above the weapon. A tank bag could be a possibility, or a J-frame in the jacket pocket. Big zipper pulls would make things easier.

I've only been riding a couple months, so I'm still getting everything sorted out. I hope to find a better solution to carrying on the bike. Until then I'll make due with what I got.

Several posters on TMW said that the gear they wear would help with a hands-on confrontation. I'm partly in that camp. I always wear a full face helmet, armoured jacket, and gloves with armoured knuckles. All this gear is cumbersome, however, and would probably hinder as much as help in a fight.

Hope this helped, I'm really no kind of expert. If I think of anything else tonight I'll put it in here tomorrow.

 

[Shorts]

Good thoughts on the gear. We'll be packing when we ride, at least we plan to. Finding the right holster and whatnot as you're going through now will be the big issue. You mentioned gloved hands and ease of access, I hadn't even thought about that. It would be difficult, even with thin summer riding gloves.

Another issue to think about and nail down: interstate travel w/gun

 

[User14]

If the bikers could muffle the sound, there wouldn't be such altercations. Not to flame, but is it really necessary?

 

[Shorts]

So you'd like to harm motorcyclists on loud motorcycles?

And yes, you do mean to flame. You got a chip on your shoulder and decided this thread would be someplace to insert it. Any good input or do you just feel like dropping a poop in someone's lap?

Finally, I don't speak for other riders, so asking me a question and expecting my answer the represent every rider is retarded. Assuming all motorcycles are loud is retarded. It's like generalizing and saying "guns are dangerous and should all be banned, anyone that owns one is a bad person and a killer".

 

[TheGrouch]

<IMHO>

I observe more irresponsible bikers than regular motorists any day of the week. Most irritating is the fact that they can be irresponsible and when one of them is injured they roll out their own special interest groups with slogans like "Kill a Biker - Go to jail". I cannot say this about EVERY biker, but some thing about the two-wheelers seems give their operator a sense of invincibility.

</IMHO>

 

[Shorts]

Grouch, your input provided no pertinent information to the post whatsoever.

Start your own bike bashing thread elsewhere.