Another CCW case in Ohio

[Cougar]

I heard a story on the radio (WNWV, 107.3 Cleveland) Thursday, Oct 26 where former Cleveland Indians relief pitcher Jose Mesa is just now being tried for a 1995 case involving his carrying a concealed weapon.

As most of you know, Ohio is one of the very few states that still has no provision for legal concealed carry. This case, in addition to the ongoing case downstate in Cincinnati, may finally break us out of the dark ages.

Mesa's defense team is arguing that prominent citizens like himself (what about the rest of us schmucks, eh?) are high-profile targets and need to be able to defend themselves. I have heard nothing else from any of the other media outlets about this case. I suppose they want to keep this one quiet -- you know, more privileges for the elite!

We'll have to closely monitor this case, eh BluesMan?

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Remember, just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you!

 

[TheBluesMan]

You got it Cougar!

I've been watching it on the OFCC mailing list for the past few days now.

It is most interesting to me that Mesa's attorneys first tried to have the charge dismissed on Constitutional grounds. (See reference to Ohio's Constitution in my signature) Kleveland isn't the best place in the state to try this, though, and the motion for dismissal was thrown out.

Now I believe that Mesa's attorney's will try the "Prudent Person" defense. The President of OFCC has been in touch with the attorneys in the case and I'm sure he has told them about the Pat Feely case. (Feely's charge of unlawful CCW was thrown out on Constitutional grounds in Cincinnati earlier this year.

We'll keep watching and hoping.

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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website

 

[RickD]

"Ohio is one of the very few states that still has no provision for legal concealed carry."

Open carry is not illegal in Ohio (lack of state preemption aside.) All Ohio needs is to enact strong preemption and repeal the law banning loaded vehicle carry and they would have Arizona pre-1994 (CCW).

But, no... They want to laminate their liberty.

Rick

 

[Cougar]

RickD,

Just try open carry here in Ohio. Just try. You'll be arrested and in jail before you could blink! You'd be charged with brandishing, menacing, or willful incitement or some other such rubbish. Our supreme court is anti-, our Governor is newly anti- and most of the lower courts would also be against you.

 

[RickD]

I used to live in Ohio.

I had this same debate with the rather wimpy gun-rights activists in Ohio last year.

I found that Ohio Revised Code mentioned only concealed carry and was silent on open carry. The folks on the Ohio gun lists told me the same thing you did.

I then called up the Ohio Highway Patrol (several patrol posts) as well as county sheriffs and PDs around my hometown of Lima. They told me that open carry was legal (and rare) and that I might get "contacted" if someone were to call in a report, but unless I was doing something otherwise illegal they would not do anything.

I reported back to the Ohio gun lists who were stumped but advised against open carry. It just so happened that I was planning a trip back there last Thanksgiving and told them I would be carrying openly.

The gun-listers told me I would "ruin it" for everyone if I exercised these rights. Funny, I would cause them to lose the very rights that they refused to exercise. Didn't seem like much of a loss.

So I went back home. Never a cross eyeball, although a meter-maid refused to look me in the eye.

The gun-listers told me to try that in Cleveland. I always thought of Cleveland of being part of Canada.

My post stands.

Rick

 

[Jeff OTMG]

Good for you RickD. A right not exercised will be lost. Those guys in Ohio are the same ones that would show up for a gun show but not walk across the parking lot to counter protest against the Million Mean Mommies. Heaven forbid that they should step on someones toes or upset somebody. I carried openly the entire week I spent in Va and WV while there for the MMM in D.C.

 

[RickD]

Say what?

Are you actually saying that some Ohio gunshow attendees had a chance to go toe-to-toe with MMMers and they...they...frickin' blew the opportunity?

Please tell me you were speaking metaphorically.

Like I told the folks on the Ohio list that I was essentially booted from (pardon my grammar)...they are wimps and are getting exactly what they deserve.

Rick

 

[TomMarker]

Err, maybe I don't WANT to carry openly. I can't see why anyone would want to carry openly 24/7 unless they enjoy dealing with the hassle, and enjoy showing off their stones in public. If you are comfortable doing so, fine. It's certainly not for everyone.

I want to be able to legally carry concealed, and if having a "laminated right" is the easiest way to do it, then so be it.

The Vermont style CCW bill has been dead in the water since it was introduced in Ohio, and I don't expect that to change, no matter how many emails, protests, petitions, etc I sign.

I know some of you would consider it blasphemy to settle for a "priviledge" to carry and have to go through all the paperwork, etc. But I would rather do it, and be legally carrying in Ohio than have someone draw a chalk outline around me because we *had* to have some utopian version of CCW.

Glad to see there's a correlation between people who think its cool to carry openly and those who get in pointless screaming matches making both sides look like irrational extremists.

Maybe you didn't get kicked off those boards because of your view, but because you present your view like an (Tom, e-mail me or TheBluesMan at your earliest convienence) and divide the cause?

Tom, the wimp in Ohio.

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited October 29, 2000).]

 

[RickD]

I'm glad you see it that way, Tom.

Open carry is the only legal way to carry in Ohio. Just as it was in Arizona before they passed CCW in 1994.

Were Zonies showing their "stones" when they were complying with a law? Are those Zonies who still carry openly because they refuse to bow to the government fingerprinter to be praised or heckled? I say praise them.

In Ohio, having a laminated right is NOT the easiest way nor is it the smartest way to do it. Your premise is incorrect. Governor Taft has first pledged that he will veto any CCW law. He now says that he will veto any CCW law that does not have the support of the FOP, which will never grant it.

Do you know how Vermont got "Vermont Carry"? A 1903 Vt Supreme Court decision...

<snip>
Judgment reversed and sentence set aside, demurrer sustained, complaint adjudged insufficient and quashed, and the respondent
discharged and let go without delay.

Cite as State v. Rosenthal, 75 Vt. 295 (1903)

STATE v. ROSENTHAL.

(Supreme Court of Vermont. Rutland. May 30, 1903.)
<snip>

Ohio is in the same situation. Some in Ohio wish to use the Freely case as a bargaining chip to institute laminated, fingerprinted, taxed, and revokable by legislature granted privileged. Very short-sighted. You got 'em by the balls and you are willing to have them slip you the high, hard one in yer arse. Smooth one.

I don't think it is cool to carry openly...well, yes I do (it allows me to show the sheeple what an armed father looks like as he carries his 5 month old daughter in the grocery store)...but the point is that it is legal in both Ohio and Arizona and several other states, some of which only allow open carry. Are they being "cool" too?

Lastly, Tom, to be accurate, I told the list owner to remove me. His view was that my very act of suggesting another plan of action was counter-productive to their cause. Essentially, I was not toeing the party line. Quite a group over there.

And, of course, I must point out, Tom, that I didn't use foul language on that list. And if I were to call someone and *******, Tom, I would have the balls to forego the use of "$$" in the spelling. Got, it, Tom?

Rick

 

[RickD]

Darn, it looks like the software requires the use of "**" when one calls another an *******.

Sorry for the confusion.

Rick

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited October 29, 2000).]

 

[TheBluesMan]

Enough!

A word, to the wise, is sufficient.

TomMarker - Email me, please.

[This message has been edited by TheBluesMan (edited October 29, 2000).]

 

[RickD]

Ooops

 

[Hal]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RickD:
Ooops[/quote]

RickD-uncalled for.


Jeff-Also uncalled for.
What you did in Va or Wv has exactly what bearing on Ohio? Both Va and Wv have CCW, and are generally gun owner friendly States. I believe your geography is off a bit here, that little incident was clear across the country accoring to pax's post.Plese, yes please tell me, no make that tell all of us, where you saw that with your own eyes, Ok?

RickD,
Taft ran partly on the issue pushing for concealed carry if it had the backing of the major LE agengies, not just the FOP. Theres more than a few LE agengies that support CC in Ohio, but he ignores them and prefers to listen to the Secratary of the Columbus Chapter of the FOP, who as far as I can determine isn't even in LE.

Listen up guys. We're working on it Ok? Maybe it isn't up to the level you folks would want it to be, but this ain't Texas, Vermont or Az. It ain't NJ or Il. either, Ok? These laws, and the though behind them go back to the very roots of Ohio history, and Ohio being a part of The Western Reserve land grant. Right now we basicly have a stalemate situation. For the time being, a stalemate is the best we can hope for, since while we haven't made much ground, we haven't lost any either. We have to stop the slide before we can start the climb back up the slope, and we're doing ok at it. Not great mind you, but ok. Name calling and false bravado aren't going to help us one bit. If you think we're wimpy, fine, that's your opinion. You want us to fight a war of confrontation, when in reality it's a seige. Bad tactics.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited October 30, 2000).]

 

[RickD]

I'm ssss. I'm sorrr... I'm sssoorr... I apologize.

I'm pretty much up to speed on the Ohio political thang. Taft is a doofus and has plenty of doofuses in officialdom to fall back on.

I present an alternative plan of action. Some would beat me about the head and shoulder for doing so. Beware the laminated card.

Rick

 

[beemerb]

There are many states that have provisions for CCW but it is allmost impossible to get one.MN is one.Local chief of police or sherif has to issue.Just try to get one if you aren't a big shot in the area.KA allso comes to mind as being about the same.

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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.

 

[TomMarker]

Rick, and all,

I apologize for my language.. I let my bad mood get the best of me.

I realize the laminated version may not be the best way to go, and is fraught with peril, but keep in mind it would be nice to have something other than open carry, which will never be a viable alternative for some.

Politicos in Ohio seem to think that the "affirmative defense" option is just fine.

I think deep down we all want the same thing, but our approach to getting it seems a bit different.

 

[EricM]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TomMarker:


I know some of you would consider it blasphemy to settle for a "priviledge" to carry and have to go through all the paperwork, etc. But I would rather do it, and be legally carrying in Ohio than have someone draw a chalk outline around me because we *had* to have some utopian version of CCW.[/quote]

If you think you're in danger of being killed, why not just carry concealed even if it's against the law? Judged by 12 vs. carried by 6 and all that.

 

[Cougar]

RickD et al,

I deeply resent the implication that I will do nothing to protect/promote our gun rights. My wife and I were among the 25 or so members of the Ohio 'contingent' that attended the Second Amendment Sisters' SAS-AIMM counter march to the MMMs in DC on Mother's Day. My wife (and I) felt that the MMM demonstration could not go unanswered. She volunteered to be the SAS Ohio Coordinator, setting up and manning tables at many gun shows in the weeks leading up to the DC rally to garner support, and she spent an additional 40-60 hours per week working on SAS functions.

You want to know the really ironic part? She has never owned or even fired a gun in her life! She felt that her rights were being trampled upon by the Media and the current administration and had enough. How is that for dedication to a cause?

We sent mailings to every listed gun shop, gun club, and shooting range in the state, along with media press releases sent to the major TV and radio markets twice, two hundred plus in each mailing and got almost no support or feedback. Six and a half million residents in the state, close to one million sportsmen and we could only get 25 people to stand up for their gun rights against Rosie and the MMMs. That is a pretty poor turnout! We even had a deal on a bus charter that only cost $26 round trip per person -- and we couldn't even fill one stinking bus! We had to fill half of our bus with Michigan riders just to make the bus break even! If it weren't for some sponsors of empty 'bus seats' we would have had to cancel the bus entirely!

After the DC rally, the SAS leadership took the organization off in another direction and they and my wife had a difference of opinion as to the future direction of SAS and they parted ways. Let's just say that the entire cause has been a bad experience in her mind.

I also agree with TomMarker. What if we don't want to carry openly 24/7? What if I don't want to advertize that I'm carrying? We also still could not 'carry' in our cars. As a Government employee, I am not permitted to carry any sort of 'weapon' at work, either. (Heck, I could realistically get severely hassled/reprimanded/written up/ possibly even fired for carrying a 2-1/2" folding knife on my belt at work!)

Having 'stones' has absolutely nothing to do with it!

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Remember, just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you!

 

[RickD]

1) By the same token, what if I don't want to be fingerprinted to carry a gun?

2) Unless you were one of the people I debated on the ohioccw listserve then I wasn't talking about you or your wife.

3) If you read my earlier post in this thread I suggested that the law banning loaded weapons carry in cars should be repealed. If you did that and added a strong preemption statute so that Cleveland couldn't ban carry, then you would have Arizona's law. Open carry in Arizona only requires that the gun or holster be partially visible.

4) Would a CCW allow you to carry at work as a government employee? Not in most CCW states. (Ya can in Arizona though).

5) I agree that stones have nothing to do with it. I didn't bring it up. Tom did.

Rick

 

[Cougar]

Rick, my rant was not addressed to you specifically, (that explains the 'et al') but towards the 'do-nothingness' that we Ohioans were being accused of.

Now to address the points you bring up...

Item 1. quote: What if I don't want to be fingerprinted...

I agree 100% there. I would much prefer a Vermont-style carry policy. I have always wanted an M-1 garand, and the cheapest way is through the DCM/CMP. However, you have to be printed for that as well. I resent being fingerprinted like I was some kind of criminal. I have never been fingerprinted in my life! Therefore, no M-1.

Item 2. No, I was not one of them.

Item 3. To do that (repeal the anti carry in car) we would have to work within the framework of the legislative process. The best way to do that is to repeal the anti-CCW laws. The case is currently before the courts as being unconstitutional. (the anti- law violates the Ohio constitution.)

Item 4. No, even with a CCW I could not carry at my government job. I suppose schoolteachers feel as unprotected as I do -- Just call us sitting ducks!

Item 5. See first paragraph.


I did not intend to start any sort of flame war with this post. I merely wanted to post a bit of news about CCW in Ohio. With the case in Cinci and now this Mesa case, we might be able to overturn the illegal CCW restricting laws.

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Remember, just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you!