(Another) 1911 Recoil Spring Question

[Nick_C_S]

I already did a search and found some stuff on this topic. And I know this topic has been beat up pretty good; but please take it easy on me. I want my specific situation addressed in its own context.

Background: I love 1911's. I have three. All full-size; all 45 ACP; a Colt 'Series 80'; a Springfield MilSpec; and a Kimber Target II. But I'm primarily a wheelgun guy and semi-auto's are outside my wheelhouse - so to speak.

I just got back from the range today, after shooting my Kimber. It was its first time out with a 24 Lb recoil spring (Edit: 22# recoil spring); along with a shock-buf - both made by Wilson Combat.

I put 172 rounds through it with excellent performance. Rounds as light as lead 200g LSWC's - running 840 f/s. To full-power (if not, +P) 185 JHP handloads - running 1100 f/s. Again, the gun ran great.

And I like that the heavy recoil spring softened and "spread out" the recoil - as best as I can describe it.

I've read where the hard snapping forward of the slide with a heavy RS can cause the muzzle to push down . . . well, if it does, it happens before I've recovered the muzzle from the recoil anyway. So if anything, it helps me. However, I didn't notice it either way.

I've heard the term "forward battering" and that doesn't sound good. Is this really a thing? If so, what is being battered? And how serious is it? I don't want to beat up my guns.

A 24 Lb (Edit: 22#) recoil spring sounds heavy to me. And it is. It's certainly not easy to rack; nor disassemble. But the gun still sends the brass flying - even with fairly modest rounds. From that perspective at least, the spring certainly doesn't seem too heavy.

I'd love to hear opinions on this. Especially opinions from those who really have extensive experience with 1911's.

 

[RickB]

The parts that are getting beat-up are the slide stop pin, its hole in the frame, and the barrel lower lugs. The gun is designed so that the slide slams into the frame in recoil, but it's not designed for the slide to slam into the barrel going the other way.
The reason that you can't tell that the muzzle is snapping down, is probably because the gun has recoiled three or four inches in the air due to the heavy spring!
There is absolutely no benefit to running a 24# spring in a .45. Even if you are shooting nothing but +P loads, anything over 18# is overkill, and for normal loads you're probably better off, from the perspective of quick and accurate follow-up shots, with a 14#.

 

[imashooter]

Considering ammunition, you should use the lightest spring possible that allows the weapon to be fully functional.

 

[P71pilot]

Excessive wear and battering definetely happens with too high poundage recoil springs. Just think that a standard 5" 1911 is supposed to have a 16lb spring. This works for powderpuff target loads to +p loads. With a 24lb spring, that is 150% of the spec spring energy. This extra energy or tension will sling forward faster and harder, so your barrel and slide are locking up quicker and with more force. I am no expert and have only had a 1911 for about 2 years, but I would guess that the extra poundage would wear out your lucking lugs and recesses much quicker. Would be harder on your slide stop as that is what's holding the barrel to the frame via the barrel link. This could also wear several other parts quicker.

A 24lb recoil spring is usually used for a .45super "conversion", which will also wear parts put much quicker.

I just have to ask why you have a 24lb spring in there anyways? And are you sure it is 24lb? Because I would think that wimpy 209gr target loads normally wouldn't fully cycle a slide being pushed forward with that much energy. I guess your target loads may be fairly stout for target loads or there could be many other things going on there

 

[g.willikers]

Yeah, If Mr. Browning wanted us to use that heavy of a recoil spring, he woulda' said.
Since he didn't, I don't.
16 to 18 lbs always seemed plenty for a full sized .45 1911.
But like the pool repair guy said when a customer called complaining he gotta' leak in his swimming pool:
"Go right ahead, it's your pool."

 

[HiBC]

Its your handgun.Do what makes you happy.
I would not run a 24 in mine.
It does increase the beating the slide stop pin,barrel underlug,and frame take.
And you will have a less control.
Double taps or rapid shooting will show more vertical dispersion.
For myself,in a non-compensated 1911,I would stay within 2 lbs or so ,+ or - ,of what John Moses designed the gun to use.
And I would not use ammunition that required more or less spring.
If I choose to hot rod a 1911,I would rely on compensator technology,ala race gun,to retard slide velocity.

 

[polyphemus]

I just got back from the range today, after shooting my Kimber. It was its first time out with a 24 Lb recoil spring; along with a shock-buf - both made by Wilson Combat.
I put 172 rounds through it with excellent performance. Rounds as light as lead 200g LSWC's - running 840 f/s. To full-power (if not, +P) 185 JHP handloads - running 1100 f/s. Again, the gun ran great.

Whatever makes you happy.

 

[Nick_C_S]

I just have to ask why you have a 24lb spring in there anyways?

Because I usually run hot rounds though this gun, and I didn't want the ammo beating it up. The conventional wisdom - at least, as I understand it, is you want to use as heavy spring that still allows the brass to eject and the gun to cycle. Maybe that's not "wisdom" at all. That's why I'm asking.

And are you sure it is 24lb?

I just checked - it's a 22# spring - not a 24#. So thank you for asking. My memory had failed me. That said, I'm guessing that all the previous posts still apply - 22 or 24# matters not.

because the gun has recoiled three or four inches in the air due to the heavy spring!

To me, this is counter-intuitive. I would think a heavy recoil spring would tame the recoil, by absorbing more of the energy, and make the gun easier to control. Where am I wrong with this thinking? I guess I have a lot to learn about all the dynamics going on during the cycling process.

Yes folks, ultimately I will do what makes me happy. But tearing up my guns does not make me happy. This is why I'm asking. I want to learn and understand this stuff. I appreciate all the replies.

 

[HiBC]

The word "absorbs" might suggest the recoil energy goes away.A little does,to inefficiency.
But the spring stores and redirects it .Its flinging that slide (hammer) forward at a much higher speed then JMB planned on.Study your handgun.What stops the slide's forward motion?The breech face contacts the barrelhood.The barrel underlug contacts the slide stop pin. The slide stop pin contacts the frame.Thats a pretty small area of steel.The frame is not all that hard.
And that fitup,slide stop pin to barrel underlug,is key to accuracy and lockup in a 1911.Your custom pistol smith works hard at getting that just right.
The gun was designed to take the recoil going in its natural,rearward direction.
It was not designed to store the energy and redirect it to the slide stop.

Think more in terms of the recoil spring stripping a round from the mag and locking the gun in battery.Figure that is the main job
You also want the recoil spring to allow a little dwell time for the magazine to raise a round up.
One more thing to consider is that little notch in your slide that holds it open on the last round.Your heavy spring gives it less time to engage,and hits it harder.
This vid is not exactly about this issue,but Jerry does go into high speed vid/slow mo and shows the muzzle staying more or less flat in recoil.It is worth watching
https://youtu.be/ChSazF41q-s

 

[WVsig]

If you like it use it. I personally think the heavy recoil spring and shock buffer is a solution looking for a problem. Wilson has made a ton of money making, marketing and selling them so what do I know.

 

[RickB]

because the gun has recoiled three or four inches in the air due to the heavy spring!

To me, this is counter-intuitive. I would think a heavy recoil spring would tame the recoil, by absorbing more of the energy, and make the gun easier to control. Where am I wrong with this thinking? I guess I have a lot to learn about all the dynamics going on during the cycling process.

To me, recoil is about the muzzle lifting from the target and then dropping back down onto target, rather than the sensation of "soft", "sharp", etc.
I'll take a "snappy", "sharp" recoil sensation if it means quicker follow-up shots.
Heavy recoil springs result in more muzzle flip and more muzzle dip, so you are sort of fighting the gun if you are trying to shoot quickly.
If you are interested primarily in comfort while plinking, then the "soft" sensation might be preferable, but I still wouldn't run a recoil spring heavier than 18#.
Heavy recoil springs also contribute to bullet set-back, which can be dangerous.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I've heard the term "forward battering" and that doesn't sound good. Is this really a thing? If so, what is being battered? And how serious is it? I don't want to beat up my guns.

As RicB already posted, what's getting battered is the lower barrel lugs, and the slide stop pin. Think about what happens when the pistol feeds another round and the slide and barrel move forward into battery. First the slide comes forward. It picks up a round and pushes it into the chamber, then the breechface makes contact with the end of the barrel hood (that little extension over the chamber mouth) and starts to push the barrel forward with it. As the barrel moves forward, the link pushes the chamber area up until the barrel lugs lock into the slide lugs. Now the slide and barrel are acting together, and carrying all the momentum imparted to them by the recoil spring.

What STOPS the slide and barrel? The assembly stops moving forward when those two little feet on the bottom of the barrel hit the slide stop pin. That stops the barrel, and then the barrel has to stop the slide. By increasing the recoil spring from 16-pounds (which is already an increase, since the original spec for the M1911 was 14-pounds), you are greatly increasing the impact each time the slide slams home on a fresh round. It's a small part, and it was not designed to take that abuse.

By contrast, the design of the 1911 doesn't need the recoil spring to control recoil. A current 1911 maestro who sometimes posts here under the screen name 1911Tuner has proven this by firing 1911s using NO recoil spring, with no damage to the gun.

Because I usually run hot rounds though this gun, and I didn't want the ammo beating it up. The conventional wisdom - at least, as I understand it, is you want to use as heavy spring that still allows the brass to eject and the gun to cycle. Maybe that's not "wisdom" at all. That's why I'm asking.

You have it exactly reversed. The goal is to use the LIGHTEST recoil spring that will allow the pistol to function -- not the heaviest.

If you want to soften felt recoil, go to the M1911.org forum ( http://forum.m1911.org/ ), to the Gunsmithing discussion area, and search for discussions about the "square bottom" or "small radius" firing pin stop.

 

[michael t]

Way over kill 16 for full size not 22

My colt officer uses a 22 if I remember right . But the compact with 3 1/2" barrel has a lot to do very quickly and not much room to do it.

Wait to you bend a the slide stop pin. Lots of fun getting a pistol apart when can't get the slide stop out..

You are as every one has said. Doing more harm than good . Stick with the correct spring weight . For you model

 

[Nick_C_S]

Great posts guys. You are all being very descriptive and making a lot of sense. I think I'm getting the picture now. Thank you.

Back to the drawingboard (range) with lighter springs.

 

[imashooter]

Being wise enough to learn; that's what it's all about. Regarding the concern of muzzle flip, true enough, it can be altered with springs however an unnecessary price will be paid. Extensive training, slowly and methodically, will accomplish what you seek, albeit, at a likely slower pace than what you might like. Once you achieve that goal, the pistol will become a mere extension of you. And you will be a very happy and confident camper. It'll be one of those deals where you get out of it what you're willing to put into it. Good luck and good shooting.

 

[polyphemus]

Back to the drawingboard (range) with lighter springs.

A reasonable course of action.

 

[g.willikers]

Don't forget the part the hammer / main spring plays in the scheme of things, too.
It's not just the recoil spring that affects the slide.

 

[Nick_C_S]

I get it now - I think

Last night, I took apart my Colt, removed the spring (my Colt is a pure target shooter these days and I only run super light loads through it, so it has a 12 Lb recoil spring in it) and took a good look at all the parts and how they interplay. Something I probably should have done in 1984 when I bought the gun.

In all these years, I never really noticed the "barrel lower lugs" - as RickB referred them - and how they fit flush with the slide stop pin when the slide is in battery. And in general, I've never really noticed how all these systems work together.

The one thing I couldn't figure out is when you pull the slide rearward, what stops its rearward travel? Seems to me, it too is the slide stop pin (??). If so, wouldn't it get battered from the slide traveling rearward too hard, due to a light recoil spring?

Addendum after the writing above: I just now took apart my Colt again - this time, just the slide and receiver. I see what stops the rearward action: It's the lower "lug" on the slide, hitting the front facing on the inside of the receiver (duh!). This is so simple, I feel I should have known this. Those two facings have a large surface area - dispersing the impact (IF there's even any significant impact).

I now have a clear picture of how it would be nearly impossible to damage the gun from too light of a spring. Conversely - and more importantly - how too heavy of a spring can.

 

[dakota1911]

I don't run over 18lb springs in my 5 inch 1911s in .45ACP and 16lb in most. But, as others have said, it is your gun.

 

[polyphemus]

The one thing I couldn't figure out is when you pull the slide rearward, what stops its rearward travel? Seems to me, it too is the slide stop pin (??). If so, wouldn't it get battered from the slide traveling rearward too hard, due to a light recoil spring?

Rearward slide travel stops when the lower end of the slide comes into contact with the frame abutment otherwise known as the vertical impact surface,note that the guide rod collar serves as a shield from direct impact.
John Browning designed this system to protect the shooter from accidental slide rearward fly out,a possibility in previous firearm models.The reaction spring does little to absorb recoil force this is mainly done by the slide mass and main spring
its function is to return the slide to battery,the barrel bottom lug is designed to
position the barrel into slide engagement it is not designed to absorb repeated severe impact it simply stops barrel and slide at the precise engagement point.