Annealer
- Thread starter Wendyj
- Start date
Wendyj,
I dont know how much it costs to get someone else to anneal your brass, but a propane torch and a few minutes of your time you can anneal your own brass.
Wendy did you try a flyer on the bulletin board at your local club ? There’s likely someone there that will do it for you . I am curious , what did you used to pay per let’s say 100 pieces . There are some machines out there in the $200 range maybe better said would be under $300 that would likely pay for them selves in no time .
RC20 , thanks
yeah the socket method is not the simplest if looking to get specific temps below full dead soft annealed . The machines are much easier to get the consistency we all try for .
RC20 , thanks
yeah the socket method is not the simplest if looking to get specific temps below full dead soft annealed . The machines are much easier to get the consistency we all try for .The guy that done it before just asked for a little money for propane. He just enjoyed having company and talking shooting and hunting.
I tried a socket and propane on about 20 cases a month ago and they are now in the scrap brass bin. Saw an ad on some forum at first of the year where you could send off for $25 for 350 rounds. Can’t find it again. Better safe than sorry in my case.
I tried a socket and propane on about 20 cases a month ago and they are now in the scrap brass bin. Saw an ad on some forum at first of the year where you could send off for $25 for 350 rounds. Can’t find it again. Better safe than sorry in my case.
RC20,
Its not hard at all to anneal cases with a torch. I dont know what “meticulous” process he has, but its not hard. If you want to go the ultra conservative route you can anneal cases with a candle flame then drop them in water.
Ed,
Do you have the Annealeze, Gen 3 or 2? I wanted to buy the gen two because it came with a tray (which he sells separately now) and the gen 3 doesn’t have the hose attachment anymore that the gen 2 had. Gen3 comes with just a ubolt for the Tank.
Looks like he only has the Gen 3 now.
Its not hard at all to anneal cases with a torch. I dont know what “meticulous” process he has, but its not hard. If you want to go the ultra conservative route you can anneal cases with a candle flame then drop them in water.
Ed,
Do you have the Annealeze, Gen 3 or 2? I wanted to buy the gen two because it came with a tray (which he sells separately now) and the gen 3 doesn’t have the hose attachment anymore that the gen 2 had. Gen3 comes with just a ubolt for the Tank.
Looks like he only has the Gen 3 now.
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Not to mention its alot faster. Just Wish you could still buy the Gen 2. I currently only have 50rd range sessions now in large or small rifle. Doesnt take long to do 50 cases now couple hundred def worth the investment
I did the samething when I first started annealing keep at it you will get better as time goes on. and you can practice on the scrap brass. I ditched the socket and use a shell holder in a drill and I just spin it slowly evenly thru the flame. its a bit longer because you have to chuck each case in but it does it extremely evenly and its pretty easy, I drop them in water. Remember you dont need a huge flame coming out of the torch just a tiny one
There a plenty of videos you can watch and you can decide which method works best for you remember always wear safety glasses and gloves.
There a plenty of videos you can watch and you can decide which method works best for you remember always wear safety glasses and gloves.
It indeed isn't hard. I just use propane torch and my fingers. With that I regularly have 20 loads out of a brass. True that I don't do hot loads. But split neck has little to do with the load's warmth. I know it is fun to fiddle with precision. I find that fun somewhere other than annealing the brass.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
I have read Metalgod process, a fellow by the name of Jeephammer used to post here as well. He was doing batches for sale to someone. He was actually looking at grain structure through some kind of fancy microscope to see if he achieved the right consistency or not.
So yes, anyone can grab a torch and heat up the end of the case (WendyJ tried what I did initially and my results were a train wreck)
I can say that as long as you do not heat the bottom of the case up and wreck its tempering, at worst you go too soft and those will shoot fine, not the accuracy I am after but they shoot ok (1 inch or so)
If you over do the heat and your case heats gets mis tempered, then its going to go boom as it will fail.
I have an Annie and go through several steps to ensure I am staying below a full anneal. Partial anneal done often enough has the same outcome as a full anneal.
But the Annie also notes that as the machine is used it changes its output and you need to run 10 cases through first (and I have seen it change 20-30 cases in, so yes I pay serious attention)
Metlagod:
You are welcome. Not the way I want to do it, happy with the Annie, but the dedication, professionalism and details involved is appreciated.
When I first started annealing I annealed 1000's of cases using a plumbers torch and a drill & socket, it is not at all difficult. Never ruined a single case. Then I had a Annealeze for a bit, did a fantastic job on .308 and .223 brass but sucked at the short cases like 6BR and 6.5 Grendel. I now own a AMP which really does a perfect job but is pricy. If I were to start over this would be the annealer I would get
https://www.derraco.com/
oh and they are available on Amazon.com for $315, https://www.amazon.com/ノーブランド-Annea...uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl
https://www.derraco.com/
oh and they are available on Amazon.com for $315, https://www.amazon.com/ノーブランド-Annea...uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl
I stand by my last post that said
As you can see the hotter the brass gets the softer it gets . If you are looking for bench rest bullet hold/release consistency you can not simply look for a color or drop it when it gets to hot . These methods WILL NOT result in a consistent brass hardness . Will those methods relive stress and extend brass life ? yes 100%
Over the years I've posted my torch method in great detail many times . I do believe I can get pretty darn consistent annealing from case to case but you must use a temp indicator and each time you start a new batch to anneal you need to start from scratch and not base the new batch on the last .
Thickness of your brass , torch heat , angle of flame on brass , rate of spin , time in flame among other things will all effect when your case reaches a specific temp . I've tested these things and believe I have a good understanding how to get consistent results . Sorry I'm not going to give another 12 paragraph post explaining all that again . Been there done that enough times now
Wendy , One of my test I did was to see how long a 308 and 223 case needed to stay in the flame to heat the head of the case to a point of compromise .
These cases were in the flame for 10sec+ . The tempilaq just below the shoulder is 750* and the tempilaq at the head is 450* which is the temp grain structure starts changing in a big way . .
Based on the limited test I ran with the temp indicators on the cases as described . I concluded it's actually hard to over anneal a case to the point of heating the head to much "IF" a single torch is only heating the neck and shoulder area . As you can see it was actually harder then I thought it would be to heat the case at the neck and shoulder area long enough to heat the head to 450* . To be clear you CAN over heat the case head but the case would need to be in the flame for 12+sec and necks glowing bright red ( well over 1200* ) or the torch angle pointed down the case towards the case head . The cases in the above pic were glowing bright red at the neck . Short of that it's not likely your case heads were annealed or softened .
If you plan to use the socket method and want consistent results I recommend 450* tempilq just below the shoulder just out of reach of the flame . When it melts remove from flame . You can do 750* inside the case neck but that's a pain to clean out IMO the 450 below the shoulder wipes right off with a rag if still hot .
As you can see the hotter the brass gets the softer it gets . If you are looking for bench rest bullet hold/release consistency you can not simply look for a color or drop it when it gets to hot . These methods WILL NOT result in a consistent brass hardness . Will those methods relive stress and extend brass life ? yes 100%
Over the years I've posted my torch method in great detail many times . I do believe I can get pretty darn consistent annealing from case to case but you must use a temp indicator and each time you start a new batch to anneal you need to start from scratch and not base the new batch on the last .
Thickness of your brass , torch heat , angle of flame on brass , rate of spin , time in flame among other things will all effect when your case reaches a specific temp . I've tested these things and believe I have a good understanding how to get consistent results . Sorry I'm not going to give another 12 paragraph post explaining all that again . Been there done that enough times now
Wendy , One of my test I did was to see how long a 308 and 223 case needed to stay in the flame to heat the head of the case to a point of compromise .
These cases were in the flame for 10sec+ . The tempilaq just below the shoulder is 750* and the tempilaq at the head is 450* which is the temp grain structure starts changing in a big way . .
Based on the limited test I ran with the temp indicators on the cases as described . I concluded it's actually hard to over anneal a case to the point of heating the head to much "IF" a single torch is only heating the neck and shoulder area . As you can see it was actually harder then I thought it would be to heat the case at the neck and shoulder area long enough to heat the head to 450* . To be clear you CAN over heat the case head but the case would need to be in the flame for 12+sec and necks glowing bright red ( well over 1200* ) or the torch angle pointed down the case towards the case head . The cases in the above pic were glowing bright red at the neck . Short of that it's not likely your case heads were annealed or softened .
If you plan to use the socket method and want consistent results I recommend 450* tempilq just below the shoulder just out of reach of the flame . When it melts remove from flame . You can do 750* inside the case neck but that's a pain to clean out IMO the 450 below the shoulder wipes right off with a rag if still hot .
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the thing is annealing is not just temperature but the time at that temperature. With flame annealing the best you can hope for is stress relieving as you can see from this chart. If you were to hold the case in the flame for 1/2 hour it would be ruined. Fortunately a bit of stress relief and softening is all you really need as a reloader. I have some 15 year old .308 Palma cases that had been sized and shot close to 30 times using nothing more than the plumbers torch method for "annealing" until last year when I bought my AMP. Never had a case split at the neck or any other place on them. I have lost a few due to loose primer pockets but that was about it
https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/brass---stress-relieving
bolding added by me and some formatting was done to make it more readable
https://sites.google.com/site/lagadoacademy/machining---lathes-mills-etc/brass---stress-relieving
bolding added by me and some formatting was done to make it more readable
Those timing numbers only pertain to large blocks of brass . It’s not too unlike baking, the larger deeper the dish the longer it takes to get the proper temperature to the middle . You need to heat it up slowly at a lower temp or the outer sections will over cook before the center reaches the correct temp . Cartridge brass is a completely different animal because it is so thin . It’s the very reason we use a 2500° torch for just seconds rather than a 600° oven for hours . We can heat a very specific section to a desired temp quickly getting the core to the correct temp while at the same time leaving the rest of the brass relatively cool in comparison to the heated area
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the thickness of the sample has nothing to do with those numbers. We are talking about the time and temp to cause a change at the molecular level, not a block of metal. Samples could be .000001 thick or 1 inch thick and you would still have to hold the entire sample at that temperature for that length of time for any changes to take effect
Damon Cali of Bison Ballistics has one of the best articles out there on Annealing that you do not have to be a metallurgist to understand
https://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing
if you want something a bit heavier and have a degree in engineering this might interest you. It's a free PDF download. BTW he used coupons 1 x 1/8 x 6 inches
https://www.academia.edu/21283133/Recrystallization_Behavior_of_70_30_Brass
Damon Cali of Bison Ballistics has one of the best articles out there on Annealing that you do not have to be a metallurgist to understand
https://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing
if you want something a bit heavier and have a degree in engineering this might interest you. It's a free PDF download. BTW he used coupons 1 x 1/8 x 6 inches
https://www.academia.edu/21283133/Recrystallization_Behavior_of_70_30_Brass
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I disagree and believe the entire sample needs to reach the desired temp . Not time related regardless . Your theory would suggest we never get our cases annealed or stress relieved ,which is clearly not true . Please explain how thin cartridge brass is stress relieved when only in the heat for seconds if size does not matter and to anneal “anything” it must be in the heat source for several minutes ?
Did you read your link , it cleary states they use/d bars of material and cartridge brass can be annealed very quickly . How can it be anneal quickly with your theory of time .
Did you read your link , it cleary states they use/d bars of material and cartridge brass can be annealed very quickly . How can it be anneal quickly with your theory of time .