An example of LEO "service"

[Jordan]

I've had this story stuck in my craw for over a year now. It's kind of a follow-up to the "How many times have you been saved by a LEO" thread that was up here a few days ago.

Just before Thanksgiving a friend/co-worker's wife dissappeared without a trace... just like that. Called to say she was coming home-- never made it home.

The outpouring of support and volunteer search effort was phenominal! Many people took unpaid time off of work, people who owned aircraft (quite a few in Alaska) swept snow off their planes and flew in -20f degree temps, even (and especially) on Thanksgiving day volunteers turned out by the hundreds to assist with the search.

In fact, probably most of the people out on the roads over that holiday weekend were driving assigned areas searching for any sign of Maryellen McMillan.

There isn't a lot of crime in this area but tips and clues were starting to point towards foul play.

What role did local LE play in the Search? Well, even though this isn't the extent of it, here's what I saw: Business as usual (meaning radar traps, ticketing for minor trafic violations, etc.).

I know you could argue that they can keep their eyes out *while* harassing motorists as well as anything. But problem was most of the motorists were US! People stepping up to do what we pay THEM to do.
Several people came back to the makeshift search headquarters complaining that they could have covered a lot more ground if they hadn't gotten pulled over for a tail light out or some crap.

I was one of the head organisers of the Search and once, when a telephone tip came in that *the* car had been spotted 15 miles away I was off like a shot! Was I speeding? You bet your ass! Did I repeatedly have to slam on my brakes on icy roads because my radar detector kept pointed out the positions of our local police? Yes I did. A Life (and the sanity of a grief stricken husband) was literally at stake.

An outpouring of support from the public was our biggest asset.... AND OUR LOCAL LEO'S BUSIED THEMSELVES AS AN IMPEDIMENT!!

Well, thanks for bearing with me. I hope you understand what an emotional time this was for us and the frustration we felt toward those who's job we were doing despite them.


She remains missing.

 

[Steve in PA]

I, for the life of me can never understand why enforcing traffic violations is considered harassment by some. Maybe if we didn't have to take you by the hand and tell you that you need "both" headlights, or taillights, remember one is already gone, what are you going to do if the only one left goes??? Or that speed kills. By the way, I don't write a citation for a broken light unless I have already given you a warning previously.

Speeding and slamming the brakes on icy roads?? Gee what a disaster waiting to happen. Just what rescue people need, trying to peel you and your car off of some pole or out of a ditch all the while they could be out looking for the missing person. trying to set a land speed record to get somewhere does you no good if you can't make it there. Did anyone ever "think" to call the LEO's by radio??? There is an old saying, you may out run my car but you can't out run the radio.

I am truely sorry that she has not been found yet and my sympathy goes to her husband and family.



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Steve
LPD

 

[bruels]

Jordan,

You didn't say if your search and rescue effort had official status and was being coordinated through the law enforcement agency in charge of the search effort, or was just a grassroots effort of people trying to help.

I see great potential for harm if volunteers are running about and not coordinating their
efforts with law enforcement. As an example, my wife got herself involved in an effort with citizen's band radio operators trying to locate the parents of two children who had been killed in a traffic accident with their babysitter also critically injured. The information they had was the parents were traveling on the New Jersey Turnpike to some destination.

The CB'ers were passing the information up the turnpike to all truckers to be on the lookout, etc., of the parents' car. My wife was screaming on the radio and crying because other radio operators not involved in this effort were not clearing the channel. I finally had to pull her off the radio because she was getting entirely too emotionally involved. For one thing, the state police already had the information. My question to her was, "Would you rather have a trained police officer notify the parents their children are dead, or some buffoon who stops them and says, 'Hey, you better call home, your kids are dead?"

Maybe it would have been nice if the police in your case had dropped all traffic enforcement efforts and supported the search. However, I fully expect if they were conducting traffic enforcement, it is because their supervisors and commanders told them to do so.

If you feel your efforts to assist weren't properly appreciated by law enforcement, then I suggest your group find ways through your sheriff or county emergency services coordinator to work better together next time there is a need for search and rescue.

 

[John Grey]

Jordan,

The reason we stop people for burned out tail-lights is simple. Woman goes missing. We (the police) approach this from 2 different angles. 1. She left voluntarily. 2. She was taken against her will.
Therefore, if she was taken by force, it might stand to reason that the person who took her might very well be driving around with her in his car. So we stop people and look in their cars. Simple.

And my condolences to the husband, relatives and friends of the missing woman.

 

[DAVE MOON]

I was gonna give Jordan a bunch of ****, but Steve, bruels and John said it much more diplomatically than I would have. Excellent responses.

 

[panzerfuehrer]

Jordan writes:
>>>I know you could argue that they can keep their eyes out *while* harassing motorists as well as anything.<<<

Well Jordan, I am a moderator at the forum of a well-known LEO website, and lifted this from there just for you.

>>>This question was taken from a "Community Policing" question and answer via e-mail forum in California.

The question was:

I would like to know how it is possible for police officers to harass people and get away with it? And where can you go for help other than a civil attorney?

And the Reply from a really cool guy was:

It is not easy. In California we average one cop for every 2000 people. About 60% of those cops are on patrol, where we do most of the harassing. One fifth of that 60% are on duty at any moment and available for harassing people. So, one on duty cop is responsible to harass about 10,000 residents. When you toss in the commercial, business, and the tourist locations that attract people from other area, sometimes you
have a situation where a single cop is responsible to harass 20k or more people a day.

A ten hour shift runs 36,000 seconds. This gives a cop one second to harass a person, and three fourths of a second to eat a donut AND find a new person to harass. This is not an easy task. Most cops are not up
to it day in and day out. It is just too tiring. What we do is utilize some tools to help us narrow down who we harass.

They are as follows:

PHONE: People will call us up and point out things that cause us to focus on a person for special harassment. "My neighbor is beating his wife" is a code phrase we use. Then we come out and give special harassment.

Another popular one on weeknights is "The kids next door are having a party."


CARS: We have special cops assigned to harass people who drive. They like to harass the drivers of fast cars, cars blasting music, cars with expired registration tabs, and the like. It is lots of fun when you pick them out of traffic for nothing more obvious then running a red light. Sometimes you get to really heap the harassment on when you find they have drugs in the car, are drunk, or have a warrant.

RUNNERS: Some people take off running just at the sight of a police officer. Nothing is quite as satisfying as running after them like a beagle on the scent of a bunny. When you catch them you can harass them for hours.

CODES: When you can think of nothing else to do, there are books that give ideas for reasons to harass folks. They are called Codes. Penal, Vehicle, Health and Safety, Business and Professions.... They all spell
out all sorts of things for which you can really mess with people. After you read the code, you can just drive around for a while until you find someone violating one of these listed offenses and harass them. Just last week I saw a guy smash a car window. Well, the code says that is not allowed. That meant I got to harass this guy.

It is a pretty cool system that we have set up, and it works pretty well. I seem to have a never ending supply of folks to harass. And we get away with it because the good citizens who pay the tab like that we
keep the streets safe for them.

Next time you are in my town, give me a single finger wave. That is a signal that you wish for me to take a little closer look at you, and maybe find a reason to harass you.

Looking forward to meeting you.<<<

'nuff said

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Panzerführer

Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.

Those that beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those that don't.

 

[Destructo6]

I know this last post was meant to be sarcastic, but it's the truth. I guess cops harassing people (Raphael Perez, anyone?) is just the fertile imagination of the sheep. What I see here is the cops typically closing ranks.

Jordan, what official position was given by the local PD during the search?

 

[Jordan]

To clarify, for the sake of Bruels and Destructo-- the only replies that didn't entirely miss (or rather avoid) the POINT of this topic.

Yes the volunteer effort was coordinated with LE. We found that our intel, organisation, and response time beat theirs hands down. Any desire for cooperation came from us and they seemed a little disinterested in us as a resource.

Their official line was the "doing all we can.. very busy... etc.". The funny thing about that was that one cop who pulled a searcher over claimed to know nothing of a missing persons case (and this is a very small community).
It seems they commited approx 10-20% of their manpower to this case and kept the rest in the dark to focus on more lucrative endeavors.

I will say, to the credit of the 10-20%, they were great!

On the "harassment" note: Picking this *word* out of the context of my post and hammering away at it shows a remarkable desire to shift the direction of this thread off it's intended subject. But since you brought it up--

Here's "harassment" for you: Overheard between the spouses of two co-workers at an office party.. an airport cop and a State Trooper...
"Yeah, anyone you wanna pull over you can. Just follow them around and sooner or later they'll make a mistake... wander over a painted line or something."
"I can't wait to pull over one of those 'LowRidaz'!"
The "Goodfellaz LowRidaz" is a local (law abiding AFAIK) car club. I admit those cars are stupid, but a club affiliation sticker is not grounds to be *hunted* like trophy game by LE!

IMO, this provided a small glimpse into the true, behind-the-scenes psyche of this set.

 

[panzerfuehrer]

Sorry I missed your "point", Jordan, but it sure seems to me that harrassment nicely sums up the ENTIRE point of your post. If those cops weren't busy harrassing all the do-gooders driving around the countryside at breakneck speed on icy roads in vehicles with burned-out tailights, then that poor woman might have been found.

Shucks, I see your point now - they should be completely ashamed for doing the jobs that you pay them to do.

Before you make any pronouncements, opinion or not, about the true, behind the scenes psyche of the LE set, based upon some third-hand story, perhaps you should get some first-hand experience. Why don't you go on some ride-alongs, or try a citizen police academy? Maybe then you will see exactly what YOU PAY THEM TO DO.


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Panzerführer

Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.

Those that beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those that don't.

 

[bruels]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jordan:
To clarify, for the sake of Bruels and Destructo-- the only replies that didn't entirely miss (or rather avoid) the POINT of this topic.

Yes the volunteer effort was coordinated with LE. We found that our intel, organisation, and response time beat theirs hands down. Any desire for cooperation came from us and they seemed a little disinterested in us as a resource.
[/quote]

Then it appears your problem lies with police administration. If sufficient numbers of your organization feel this way, then perhaps your solution is to organize once more to elect a different sheriff or members of the governing body who hire the police chief and get someone who will welcome your help as long as you play the game by the rules.

 

[DAL]

Jordan, while I have big disagreements with many of the things the police are tasked with, and some of the methods used by them in performing those tasks, I must say that (objective) traffic enforcement is one area I agree with completely. Too many times I see people speeding, driving recklessly, and just being ignorant a******s in general when they think a cop's not around. Remember, if you're following all the rules of the road, you shouldn't have anything to worry about--unless you fit a profile that's been deemed suspicious and/or happen to be in an area you don't seem to belong--but that's another topic.

I'd love to see even more traffic enforcement, especially in light of the fact that many more thousands of lives are lost due to accidents than to some of the other areas LEOs are charged with watching/controlling.

BTW, I do my level best to follow the speed limits and all of the rules of the road. But even that's no guarantee of safety. In Feb. of this year I was rammed from behind by a driver (teenager) and I suffered a small cut on my forehead when I hit the steering wheel, and a slight concussion when my head snapped back and knocked out the back window of my small truck. The driver was ticketed for following too closely. I only wish more cops had made their presence known along that road because MAYBE that could have prevented the accident.

As a sidenote to the above sidenote, it turned out the kid was driving his grandmother's vehicle. Her insurance payment went in late and she didn't have coverage when I was hit. Since I only had liability, I was left holding the bag. I'm taking her to small claims court later this month to TRY to get satisfaction.

Too bad about the missing woman.
DAL


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Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school.
GOA, JPFO, PPFC, CSSA, LP, NRA

 

[KawKLR]

ah screw it, nothing constructive in what i wrote.

[This message has been edited by KawKLR (edited May 09, 2000).]

 

[Dave AA]

Jordan, I see your point at least.

I remember when you could call the police if you locked your keys in your car. Sure, you had to wait until somebody was free, but so what? The police were there to help you. Now if your car is stolen, you "have the option" of going to a police station and filling out some paperwork. They will not even come out to take a report. (and I think it would be obvious to them that you have no vehicle)

The police have done less and less with more and more of our money. I think that this is more the fault of their leadership than the guy on the street, but the attitude filters down.

And I am so sick of hearing "you should be a cop, go to the academy, blah blah blah if you aren't a cop you wouldn't understand"
I am really tired of that standard diversion. Anyone with an interest and an intellect can see glaring trends.
Since I'm not a politician, I must not be able to have an opinion on "political" issues.
Since I'm not a fireman, I better not try to put out the fire in my kitchen.
Since I'm not a mechanic, I guess I had no business overhauling my engine.
Just FYI, my father was a police officer. I feel safe in saying I have had my share of "ride-alongs" and exposure to police operations and training.

Maybe some people should try being a joe-blow American citizen.

To the street cop helping people, thank you.

JMHO

 

[DC]

To put a bit of pewrspective into this...

Your average, standard cop doesn't have the luxury to pick and choose what he/she is going to roll on.

My point is that it is not the cop[/] you have a bitch with, its the leadership/local political authority/etc.

The individual cop has no say, may not even have knowledge, so lets not beat up cops.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!

 

[Jordan]

Man this topic can sometimes boil my blood!

First of all, Thanks DaveAA. You got my drift.

DC: I *am* an intelligent guy who is capable of assuming an objective perspective. I can definately see your point that what we see where the rubber meets the road is really some administrator's Bravo Siera rolling down hill.

However, my attitude of "give the work-a-day cop a break" is degrading rapidly! Sadly, that's largely the result of what I've seen of LEO's here at TFL. I assume that the LEO's who post on this board ARE the "good ones" that I keep hearing about.

Look at their responses just in this thread alone! We've got knee-jerk defensive counter-attack, some ugly sarcasm, arrogant, condescending, patronizing tone about "that poor woman", and finally some unsolicited lessons in inclimate driving!
Dave Moon said it most brazenly with "Wanted to give Jordan some ****..". Well there's a real show of integrity and a fine example of the profession. I tell a story of a truely tragic circumstance and how it went badly and I've got "give'em a break" Dave Moon wanting to "give me some ****"

When you can't hide your true mettle any better than this you make it tough for people like DC who try to defend you and give you the advantage of the doubt.

 

[bruels]

Well, this seems to have degenerated to "The cops suck because they didn't solve my problem" thread. I retired from law enforcement because I got tired of grown adults coming to the station and wanting someone to change their diapers. Life was one continuous crisis for them and no one seemed to care.

If your friends stole your van after you lent it to them, perhaps you need to find better quality friends.

If your co-worker broke into your house and took your things, perhaps he thinks you are a wimp and won't do anything about it.

My experience with "victims" in law enforcement is a large percentage of them walk around with a sign on their backs that says, "Kick me."

If you don't like the way law enforcement works in your community, then organize and change it. Crying, "Poor me, the cops are insensitive to my needs," isn't going to change things.

 

[kjm]

Another group that is fun to bash is teachers! My wife is a teacher and you should hear the knee-jerk reaction that she gives me when I say ANYTHING derogatory about the public school system. Hell, my only motivation for becoming a teacher is that maybe one person could teach 60 or so students a year about what our nation is really about. Anyway, I appreciate our local cops. I tend to understand that cops have more bad days than usual because of the hostility they recieve from people for no reason. I learned that many times when they attempt to "harass" me for real or imagined violations of the code, a smile, and some small measure of respect will almost always get you off the hook, and in some cases you can strike up interesting conversation and learn somthing (cops seem to know all the poop on everybody in town). Although I've heard horror stories before, I like to think that our cops are excellent, and when compared to the cops in some of the eastern block nations, they're down-right saints!

 

[moonshadow]

Jordan, I agree with you completely. The "cops are always right" attitude displayed in this thread and throughout the forums here have convinced me that this is not a board where I should spend my time.

That law enforcement officers can not immediately see that looking for a missing person, where foul play is strongly suspected, should take priority over stopping someone for a missing tail light, is frightening. Yes, people need to have properly working tail lights -- but write your tickets some *other* time.

IMO the cop-out (pun intended) of "beat cops aren't to blame" doesn't wash. It's not the individual actions of particular police officers that causes so much distain among the "civilians", but the widespread institutional arrogance that occurs all over the country, from the feds to the locals, from the administrators to the beat cops.

I of course can only speak for myself, but I know that if/when I ever must serve on a jury, I will assume that the police are lying. Even under oath. There's been too many credible reports of police being *trained* to lie under oath. The amount of physical evidence I would need to be shown to convict anyone accused by today's police officers is simply huge.

It's very easy for people to believe that the police aren't so interested in upholding the law, as they are in collecting the money from the lawbreaker. People *have* been framed by police in order to confiscate their belongings. There *are* "bad cops" out there, and too much of the time the "good cops" will close ranks around them and protect them. And you wonder why people regard ALL cops as potential bad ones?

If the police want people to begin to respect them again, then stop profiting from crime yourselves, stop protecting the bad apples amongst you, and above all -- when someone posts a complaint, try to stop your obvious first instinct to scream at all the things *they* did wrong, and instead ask how the police could have handled things better.

I don't expect this post to change anything or anyone; I just wanted Jordon to know he wasn't alone in his viewpoints. Don't worry though, I won't be posting here again.

 

[Destructo6]

buels...you've got to be kidding! Victims deserve what they get?!

With an attitude like that, you shouldn't have a badge.

 

[Coinneach]

Enough.

All of you taking part in the Eternal War know good and damn well that insults and ad hominem are not permitted on TFL, in either direction. I had been hoping that the usual suspects would get a friggin' clue and knock it off, but no such luck. You know who you are.

Anti-cop/anti-civ flamewars are absolutely forbidden here, by direct order of Rich Lucibella. You know, the guy who owns the box and bandwidth, and who provides TFL as a place to discuss guns and related issues. If you're not willing to follow his rules in his house, get out.

This thread is now closed. DO NOT start the same old lame **** again.

Clear?