American Shooter....

[Dave McC]

Flipping through the channels this AM, I caught this on the OLN network. When did they switch from TNN?

Anyway, part of the show included a tour through the Benelli factory in Urbino, Italy. Naturally, Benelli's a sponsor. And naturally, they showed a semi auto being fired by an employee very,very fast. Of course, the gun was all over the place and it looked more like suppressive fire than a quail triple.And the employee, whose job it is to shoot these things I guess, did look like he was in pain.

Another segment had them shooting "The New US Military Shotgun, the M-4". Again, they showed it being fired very fast, with the thing jumping all over. While the piece looks interesting, I find the mumbo-jumbo about "Gas Assisted" recoil operation kinda murky on purpose. Smoke and mirrors to hide the fact the action's based on a 100 year old design,IMO.

When was it decreed that the US needed a weapon of limited practical range, limited effect, and that caused pain in many of its more poorly trained and motivated users? I mean, we already have the M-16.

Much as I like shotguns, I do not see much use for them, or this, in modern conflict. Subguns don't kick, are capable of full auto, and can be used in any role at least as effectively as a shotgun. Stockade duty,etc, can be handled by existing inventory.

On yes, the Tech Guide segment,as usual, showed new stuff from other sponsors, this time Les Baer and Marlin, IIRC.

The only segment that wasn't infomercial showed the ineffeable Bob Munden busting eggs and marbles with a GM. They didn't say, but I bet it was a Baer...

Anyways, American Shooter Seems to have sunk to a new low. Too bad, I used to enjoy it....

 

[KSFreeman]

Dave, from the Plymouth Fathers on, Americans have used shotguns since the War of Independence. In fact, George W. instructed his commanders to ensure that their troops loaded with "buck n' ball" or "swanshot" as the first charge. This was another reason why George W. disliked raffles (no "volume/area fire" effect and required too much training).

It has been a while (each year is 10) but current militree urban warfare, both the Army and the USMC, training puts emphasis on built up close fighting. The terrain where the shotgun can be employed effectively. This does not included the spec ops people who have received renewed attention.

The shotgun has been employed by Americans in all wars and fights to the present. All weapons are only tools. I want my militree to have a wide selection, the best and have lots of them (with plenty of ammo, parts and training).

Machine pistols do "kick" and do not have the tactical flexibility of shotguns. Of course, there are pros and cons to all weapons.

For me, when I have both, I want the shotgun, but I'm only defending the Fashionable Bachelor Pad, not taking down a room full of "tangos." I want the 20 year Force Recon Marine to have his choice between the two since he will be there and I will be here.

 

[Dave McC]

KS, during the late unpleasantness in SEA, a model 97 was part of my crew equipment.It was a comfort on guard duty, but the rest of the time I had an M-14. It worked up close and way out there also.

BTW, Ol' George loved riflemen, he just insisted they not be used where their slower rate of fire would handicap them unduly. The fact that the Brit officer casualty rate approached 100% in some engagements helped Washington's appreciation.

When General Burgoyne died at Saratoga,the rifleman(Tim Murphy) was an estimated 300 yards away.

Back to shotguns. Up close and sudden, a shotgun is perhaps the best possible weapon in trained hands. But,as soon as the distance gets past 25 yards or so, the advantages get outweighed by disadvantages PDQ. And even in urban fighting, distances can get past that 25 yards too frequently. Much as I like my 870s, unless there's nothing else available, combat would see me with a rifle.

 

[KSFreeman]

Erick, you'd rather talk about the office?

Dave, I guess my post should be confined to "line" soldiers, not the spec ops of the Old Wagoneer's ilk (who were stilled viewed with raised noses-some things never change).

 

[Dave McC]

Can we agree to disagree, KS? As for choice, I'm for it. It's just that after teaching a few hundred folks how to operate a shotgun, I know just how few of them are effective with same.

And, my main thrust on this thread concerned the show. We have been sidetracked..

 

[bamf]

Dave,

Well the show isn't new, its quite old actually. I believe the show moved from TNN to OLN at the begining of the year.

You deride the show for Benelli being a sponsor...I don't know if I found out a show is doing something on my product or company, I'd want to sponsor the show but thats just me. You seem to believe that the show did a story on Benelli because it was a sponsor, I doubt thats true but Jim Scoutten sometimes frequents TFL...you can find his email and ask him.

Just a thought on combat shotguns, it seems that alot modern wars involves close quarters (in building etc.) It would seem to have a shotgun for at least one member of a team would be beneficial.

 

[Dave McC]

You got me wrong,Bamf. It's the infomercial like aspect I deplore. In the past that show has had some great features, including Jim shooting a classic 4 bore stopping rifle. There was also a segment on muzzleloading cannon that my kids loved, and they're not hardcore gunners.

Saturday morns are not good TV time for me, I'm usually sleeping in, working, or at the range. So, I missed the network switch.

 

[M1911]

At the start of Operation Anaconda, the Boston Herald had a front page picture of US troops walking towards helicopters that would take them to the front. One of the soldiers in the front of group was carrying a pump gun. So they're still in use, and not just for guard duty.

M1911

 

[KSFreeman]

Me, sidetrack a thread? Heavens to Betsy.

Oh, yeah, back to Dave's thesis. "American Shooter" even if it has off shows is exactly the kind of show that needs to be out. It "legitimates" the gun culture and shows that firearms are part of the everyday fabric of culture.

 

[Dave McC]

Thanks,KS, you put it better than I. AS can be quite a positive thing, that's why seeing it sunk in blatant and shameless plugs bugs me. One other show, "Pull", has segments where they plug the club/resort/ they're shooting at, but it's not quite so blatant. Billy and Sartah can shoot, and I recall seeing Ol' Billy put down his gamer gun and shoot a few rounds with a 28 gauge 870. THAT got my attention(G)...

And I believe there's a real market for QUALITY hunting and shooting shows.

M1911, I think I'll let that part of this drop. In one of those sudden flashes of cognizance that comes rarely, I realize my personal experiences re combat weaponry are 30 years old. S'Funny, it feels like yesterday..

 

[M1911]

Dave McC:

Well, you've got more experience in combat than I have -- I've got none so far, and hope that I'll leave this good, green earth a long time from now still having none.

I don't know that I'd want to carry a shotgun into combat in Operation Anaconda -- in fact, I KNOW that I'd rather not be in Operation Anaconda no matter what I was carrying. I was just relating what I saw, for what it's worth, not what I'd rather carry in such a situation.

M1911

PS: Thank you for your service to our country.

 

[Dave McC]

Thanks. If I had to be in Afghanistan right now, WOC would be an M-14.

 

[mrt10x]

I tried desperately not to reply to this but now I have to, sorry my first post has to be contentious. The shotgun is the weapon of choice for close combat operations, especially operations that may require breaching of obstacles and enclosures, i.e. caves (operation anaconda). MP5's, M-4's(the designation for the new M-16 carbine variant, not sure how the shotgun got the same nomenclature), etc are great weapons in close areas but if ricochet, or over penetration are a problem, buck shot is the only way to go. The shotgun will always have a place in our military arsenal. 75% of the world’s population now lives in cities in the littoral regions. This means urban combat will definitely be a part of most conflicts in the future, I would always prefer the members of my breaching team to be carrying a shotgun into an adjacent room. Now as for the derogatory comments toward the m-16. The M-16 has become the premier light infantry weapon of its time. I love the M-14, I own a wonderful double lugged Springfield super match that shoots 1/2 MOA. But I certainly wouldn’t want to carry one into combat. I can carry twice the ammo with my m-16, I have to carry 1/3 of the magazines (which weigh less as well), the gas system is now more reliable, and a transition from 75 degree base camp to 15 degree wet, cold mountain top will not affect my zero. The M-16 started life in a miserable fashion, but there is a reason that the last 4 National Team Champions and last 5 National Individual Champions have shot m-16's at Camp Perry. They have surpassed the m-14 in reliability, ease of operation and accuracy. I will give the m-14 the 1000 yard line hands down, but anything closer belongs to the black gun. This admission may get me derided as making the point that the 14 is a superior weapon, but with the exception of snipers, very few shots in combat will be taken in excess of 200 yards. Time to come into the future. Rant completed.. hope to be more jovial in the future.

 

[ocabj]

what's oln? i get tnn but i never heard of oln.

 

[Dave McC]

Outdoor Life Network,ocabj.

MRT10X, in Jan 70, I had been incountry maybe a week, when a night attack in the immediate area had me with a scrupulously clean M-16 jamming twice. I procured an M-14 through "Irregular" channels and went glitchless until July, when I was medivaced back to the land of round doorknobs. I'm sure newer 16s have been tweaked and upgraded, but I'll go with what works for me.

As for shotguns, I see little use, but as I've said, my info is dated.

 

[mrt10x]

absolutely.. I was in grade school... M16A1 would have been better used as a paper weight.. however I think 30 years of refinement have done it some good. Just trying to bring a modern perspective to some current weapons systems.

 

[JIH]

I like the IDEA of a shotgun for some limited combat applications (breaching, bunker/trench clearing), but don't see it panning out that well in practice.

I mean, the recruits already complain about the recoil of their M-16s...