Amazed at the ignorance

[sliponby]

I'm at a local big box gun counter talking to a salesman I know when a couple approaches and are in the market for a pistol for the wife. The husband readily admits that he has little experience with pistols and the wife has none. I'm a firearms instructor and my main concentration is with the beginners, the ones who need training the most, and I mainly teach the NRA Basic Pistol Course. I'm by no means an "expert" but I like to think I help those who need it the most with firearms safety, knowledge and skills.

The salesman graciously introduced me as an instructor and the couple were appreciative of my offer of advice. I started with the "what use will you have for this pistol question. Concealed carry? Home defense only? Both?" They stated their intended use was for home defense only. I encouraged them to stay away from the compacts and look more towards Glock 19, M&P 9, etc. I encouraged them to stay with 9mm.

Suddenly, we were interrupted by a gentleman who looked to be in his sixties. "You need a .40 caliber instead of a 9mm" he told the couple. I immediately disagreed and stated that a new, inexperienced shooter would be better served to start with a 9mm and maybe move to a .40 cal. after they had mastered the fundamentals.

The gent described himself as "an old jarhead" and that his wife and daughter both have .40 cal. Glocks. He went on to say "I taught them to make the first shot to the groin area and let the recoil of the gun bring follow up shots to the stomach and chest". Needless to say I was so flabbergasted at the ignorance of that statement that I was speechless for a few moments. I recovered, did my best to ignore this guy and continued on with the couple as the salesman began to show them a Glock 19. They eventually settled on a Ruger SR9 because they wanted a pistol with a safety.

Has anyone else ever run into someone who had it so wrong AND were passing on their ignorance to others?

 

[SocialAnarchist]

I am amazed at the blatant ignorance I have heard in gun stores, big box and otherwise, from both sides of the counter.

I am not a huge fan of the 9mm, being a .45 acp guy myself, but to be honest I have always looked at the .40 s&w as a solution to a problem that didn't exist. The switch back to 9mm seems to prove that.

 

[Fisher]

Has anyone else ever run into someone who had it so wrong AND were passing on their ignorance to others?

The short answer is, yes. The longer answer is this.

Everyone has an opinion as to what caliber is best for the beginner and where they should be aiming that first shot. The truth is that there really isn't a right answer that anyone can give the couple. It's only a persons opinion that they have from their personal experience that they pass on to others. Unfortunately there are those that should be listening instead of talking. Then there are those like yourself that have experience and are willing to pass that on.

I rarely get involved in these types of conversations in a gun store. Mainly because of the situation you ran into. Again, everyone has an opinion and most think that theirs is the right one. When I am asked these types of questions, my typical response is to go to a gun range. Rent a .380, 9mm, .40, and a .45 and see which one trips your trigger. Then you know what caliber to buy. Then visit the gun stores to see what make and model you are comfortable handling.

In my opinion, any other way just starts arguments and gets peoples feelings hurt.

Jim

 

[sliponby]

My intention was to point out the ignorance in teaching someone to aim first shot low and let the recoil bring follow up shots up - not to knock .40 cal or .45 cal (I have pistols in both calibers and allow students to try - as well as .380).

However, I often seen new shooters come to my classes, usually ladies whose dad, husband, boyfriend chose them a compact .40 cal as their first pistol and they are recoil sensitive due to poor first choice of pistol. Once on the range I start them out with a .22 cal semi-auto (SR22), allow them to grasp the fundamentals of proper grip, sight alignment/picture, etc. then move them to a 9mm. Some have even shot their .40 cal (or one of mine) with new found confidence and skills.

I never diss any caliber but I maintain that most new shooters are better served starting with 9mm.

 

[JohnKSa]

In general, the less people know about a topic, the more they're convinced that what they know on the topic is the truth and the more confident they are about their competence to dispense information on the topic.

That's because it requires a reasonable amount of knowledge about a topic to be able to assess whether or not a person is competent on the topic. And that is true even (perhaps especially) when a person is self-assessing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

Below is a link to the original paper.
http://psych.colorado.edu/~vanboven/teaching/p7536_heurbias/p7536_readings/kruger_dunning.pdf

Two lessons there...

1. Given the findings of the paper, it shouldn't be surprising to find that people who don't know much about a topic are still more than willing to authoritatively dispense advice.

2. Always keep in mind that you may actually be less competent than you think you are. Don't get so confident in your knowledge that you think you have nothing left to learn.

 

[idek]

On the upside, the salesman apparently has the sense to acknowledge your experience in front of other customers. It's one thing for random customers to have mixed up ideas about things, but the salesmen who think they have all the answers and have too much pride to admit what they don't know is a bigger turn off to me.

 

[Mannlicher]

the only behavior or thoughts I can control are my own . I usually keep my own counsel, and avoid inserting my views in to a conversation with strangers.

 

[mehavey]

I woulda been the old guy that came to say"

"...get a Ruger GP-100, let the wife train up
w/ standard 38 Special; and load it for SD
w/ Federal's +P/158 grain LSWC-HP...."

(... and afterwards get a real gun, like a 1911....)











* in all seriousness, I've never had a woman leave a class after even a little time -- and very surprised -- at her liking the 1911.

 

[JimPage]

I've heard all sorts of advice, good and bad. I don't comment on where to shoot someone because it is outside my realm of experience and hope I don't have to gain that experience. I have opinions of how to do it, but I don't often share them with many. If I do eventually have to shoot someone, I don't expect to be bragging about it.

 

[James K]

I worked in a gun store, and I bet my "ignorance" stories would beat anyone's.

Did you know that the noise of a gun is not made by the powder gas escaping? No sir. It is caused by the air rushing back into the barrel to fill the vacuum when the bullet comes out.

Just so you know.

Jim

 

[cslinger]

You need to look at the bright side. I cannot tell you how many people I have seen try to push new female shooters into a .357 magnum J frame because it's small and fits their purse or hands. Want to turn a new shooter off to shooting right quick....well the above is a good start.

Honestly I find it best just to sigh and move on as long as the "information" isn't inherently dangerous. My favorite was "All guns are made in a factory in Germany". ALL OF THEM. Dude was adamant. Ruger, Smith, Sig, Feedom Arms.....yep no matter all made in Germany. Since then I call this magical place Webemakinthemalldorf and I am not convinced ALL ammo come from the little country of Ammostan.

 

[serf 'rett]

Run into them on a regular basis.

"You need a 40S&W..."
"Just shoot 'em in the leg..."
"Make sure you carry an extra knife so you can..."
"The 45ACP was invented in WW2 and can rip a man's arm off his body."
"I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six."

A personal favorite is the gun store employee telling a guy, who was trying to determine if he should get into reloading and how much it would cost to reload .223Rem, that he would need about 25 grams of powder in the cartridge. By the time the clerk worked out the math, a pound of powder would load 18 rounds of .223Rem.

 

[serf 'rett]

The "Zipper" method of engagement is put forth as gospel by some folks. Close cousin is you need to "hold the pistol sideways so you spray to whole crowd."

It makes one weep.

 

[pax]

In gun stores and on public ranges (and all too often online), the advice given to women by strangers is more often bad than good.

Good for you for being there and standing firm on what you know.

pax

The techniques of opening conversation are universal. I knew long ago and rediscovered that the best way to attract attention, help, and conversation is to be lost. A man who seeing his mother starving to death on a path kicks her in the stomach to clear the way, will cheerfully devote several hours of his time giving wrong directions to a total stranger who claims to be lost. – John Steinbeck

 

[g.willikers]

"I taught them to make the first shot to the groin area and let the recoil of the gun bring follow up shots to the stomach and chest"

This is, indeed, a variation of of a close quarter point shooting technique.
Try it sometime.
I practice this very one occasionally.
Others are the Mozambique (two to the chest, with an aimed one to the head) and such.
The first round to the groin area is thought to defeat some kinds of body armor or at least be very distracting.
Nothing off putting about it, actually.
Now the guy's rudeness in interrupting with unsolicited advice is another matter.
It can pay to remember that the requirements to teach the NRA courses are no where near the whole picture.

 

[g.willikers]

There's plenty of odd ball techniques one will run across going to enough matches and training sessions.
One of my favorites was the "Rolly Polly" developed and mastered by a rotund, small town chief of police.
Before even clearing leather, he would be flat (well not quite) on his nice round belly, rolling up and down, vertically stitching the target with very fast and impressive hits.
All he need to be perfect would have been a clown suit.
But I surely would not have ever wanted him using that technique to shoot at me.

 

[Pond James Pond]

One of my favorites was the "Rolly Polly" developed and mastered by a rotund, small town chief of police.
Before even clearing leather, he would be flat (well not quite) on his nice round belly, rolling up and down, vertically stitching the target with very fast and impressive hits.

Now, let's see my wife telling a second pizza is a bad idea!
It's all part of being prepared.

I must confess I had once heard of the groin shooting, muzzle-flip thing from a serious source.
I think the Mozambique drill seems the most impressive, but them I have watched Collateral several times...

Vincent: "I do this for a living, Max!"

 

[T. O'Heir]

Overheard a militia kid, on a public range, long ago, telling his buddy it was impossible to shoot an FN left handed. Asked him how I managed to shoot expert with one.
Would have told your couple they needed to try a few handguns on for size first. Regardless of the action type. And that they'd be better off with a shotgun and no handgun if they were not planning on shooting it regularly.

 

[TimSr]

Has anyone else ever run into someone who had it so wrong AND were passing on their ignorance to others?

LOL! I hate to say it, but its human nature to assume that those who do not agree with us are "ignorant", and its rare to find two "experts" who agree on anything. All one need do is look on this forum, when somebody asks a question and every possible answer there is at least once in response. I'm not ragging on forum members, I'm just saying its human nature. I'm sure that guy went home thinking the same thing about you.

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

LOL... Wow... Your thread has hit home to me so hard on a personal level.

I've worked at gun shops for about 6 years. I hate, hate, hate, HATE! When people interrupt me in my sale. Both fellow employees and outsiders that have no business interrupting me and trying to disrespectfully go against what I'm saying to swing...it...

These are what I've encountered.

The co-worker... No, this is my sale. Please go away. Don't shout over my shoulder "Show them the Beretta 92!" While I have a P226 in my hands because they came in specifically asking for the "gun the Navy SEALs carry". Just leave me alone in general. Unless I call you over for help because the gun I'm trying to sell is the gun on your hip. Otherwise. Go away.
The best co-worker team I had, was the ones that always agreed with me in front of customers just to make the sale for each other. Miss those guys.

The know it all range commando aka paper puncher... No, go away. You need to stop. I've kicked out countless amounts of people for saying "Don't buy it here! That's $20 less as XYZ.com..." Really? Are you kidding me? You're in my store. Please leave because you don't respect me, my customers, or my store. The customers while being the best part of the business can also be the worst. I've had DOZENS of customers talk over me saying how .40S&W is better. I have the best responses in the world for them and the customer I'm with that I politely make the commando feel like an asshat. From having the customer I'm speaking with originally have their hands out while I slap their held together fists mocking 9mm vs 40 vs 45. 9mm, I tap forward. 45, I slap dead on. And .40 I slap their fists upward and their eyes do this ---> O_O to showing them JHP's I shot through B-Gel from a top view and ask them to tell me which is what caliber. They never can. Then I say, would you prefer 9 of these, 14 of these, or 18 of these? They always go the 9mm.

I can breathe now..... whoosa.