Alliant 2400 inconsistent data

TJB101

New member
Looking to load some 357, 125gr JSP and pulled my notes for 2400 ... very inconsistent range. Anyone have some other specs for this load. Alliant is showing 17gr max (they only show max). I can’t believe .015” would case that much discrepancy. What’s a good, safe min and max?

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Nick_C_S

New member
In July this year I loaded some 125 JHP's (Everglades) using 17.0gn of 2400.

Testing through a 4" Smith 686, a 10-round sample chronographed at 1295 f/s avg. 128 ES; and 33.30 SD.

So yeah, it was a crappy loading. My notes state (and my memory - it was just this past summer) that they were a high report, high flash, high recoil, superfluous load combination. They may behave better through an 8" bbl and/or carbine lever action (which I have both, but didn't test). But the bullet/powder combo is basically just silly through a shorter barreled revolver.

BTW, I get as much velocity with a minimum charge (9.4gn) of Power Pistol. And it does so in a far better handling package. There's no comparison.
 

44 AMP

Staff
Testing through a 4" Smith 686,

2400 is not a good powder choice to use in a 4" anything.

In the screen shot of the loading data, I see no mention of what firearm, or barrel length was used developing the data.

1175fps as the listed max for a 125gr bullet is way below what I shoot. Not sure what they are using for testing but as far as I'm concerned, if they max out a 125gr bullet below 1200fps, they need better guns! :D
 

TJB101

New member
Should have mentioned this will be out of two different lever rifles. Hoping 2400 will be decent for some hot(er) loads for them.
 

T. O'Heir

New member
1,024px is too big.
"...015”..." That's just the differences in manuals. The 1.590" is the SAAMI Max OAL for the .357. Minimum is 1.405". REGARDLESS of the bullet weight. Anything in between is totally safe. A rifle may not feed short loads well though.
You should note that for some daft reason Alliant used a 10" and a 6" barrel for their tests. Hodgdon's site shows a 10" barrel for all theirs.
"...out of two different lever rifles..." You'll have to work up a load for each of 'em. And Alliant thinks 2400 is for hand guns only. Even though it's the same data. Rifle loads are tested in an 18.5" barrel by Hodgdon. Are you looking at Rifle or handgun data?
 

TJB101

New member
You'll have to work up a load for each of 'em. And Alliant thinks 2400 is for hand guns only. Even though it's the same data. Rifle loads are tested in an 18.5" barrel by Hodgdon. Are you looking at Rifle or handgun data?


For revolvers I use light rounds for the family to shoot. 2400 is for one of two lever rifles.
 

Nick_C_S

New member
2400 is not a good powder choice to use in a 4" anything.

I'm curious what you mean by that 44 AMP? Or maybe a little more detail.

As we know, 2400 is a fairly slow propellant. So it can do all the undesirable things that goes along with that.

But my "full-throttle" 158 grain load (357 Mag) uses 14.6gn of 2400 and it's a fine shooting round without excessive flash or thrust recoil. Its behavior is much better pushing 158's, as opposed to 125's. Runs about 1275 f/s though the previously mentioned 4" 686. It's a good "balanced," proper handling load.

To shift subject, and get back to our OP: Since he mentioned that he'll be shooting these through lever rifles. That changes things. Barrel length cures all :p. In a lever rifle, 125/2400 should be a good combo.
 

44 AMP

Staff
2400 is not a good powder choice to use in a 4" anything.

I'm curious what you mean by that 44 AMP? Or maybe a little more detail.

From my point of view, its a matter of performance and efficiency. In the shorter barrels (and I mean shorter than 6") 2400 usually gives around 100fps (if that) more velocity at max than some medium burn rate powders, and you're burning more powder to do it.

Say, for example, you load 12gr of 2400 and get mid 1200fps and you load 8gr of Unique and get high 1100s (numbers for illustration not actual specific loads) you're burning 50% more powder for a very small increase, and one that might not even exist in a different gun.

Variation of even 100fps can happen between different guns with the same barrel length, shooting the same ammo. Its not common, but I've seen it happen.

When the barrels get longer the increase you get from 2400 far surpasses the small lead 2400 can have in shorter barrels, which to me justifies the greater amount of powder burnt.

The gun matters A LOT as well.

When the stars line up some unexpected things can happen. Back in the late 80s a friend came over with some "hot" `125gr JHP loaded for his Marlin carbine. The powder was 2400 and the amount was a listed load in the Speer Manual of the day. (and way above the loads listed in the OP)

Since I had gotten a chronograph he wanted to see what they actually did. And since we were going to test, we added in the other .357s we had available at the time. A Marlin 1894 carbine, a S&W m19 6", a S&W M28 6" and a Desert Eagle (6").

First gun tested was the M19. The guy shooting it doubled the gun! (fired two shots when one was intended) To this day, I don't know how he did it, but it happened. The one shot the chrony picked up read 1620fps.

We decided that was enough for the M19, and while the 4 unfired rounds fell out normally the fired cases had to be driven out with a rod and a small mallet, hand pressure on the ejector rod would not move them! :eek:

Same ammo fired 6 normally through the M28, and after a slight resistance, ejected normally with hand pressure alone. Avg vel was 1670fps!!

Same ammo fired through the Desert Eagle, one full magazine (9) function was flawless and the velocity was 1720fps!! And while the DE was nominally a 6" barrel that length also included the chamber. In addition to no flash gap the barrel was also polygonal rifling.

SO, 100fps difference in MV between 3 different "6 inch" barrel pistols. Uncommon, but not unheard of.

Same ammo fired from the Marlin carbine clocked right on 2200fps.
This story isn't meant to tell you what will happen, or what usually happens only that sometimes things like this DO happen.

I no longer have any .357 with a 4" or less barrel, all mine are 6" or longer and for them, 2400 is a great choice.

were I loading .357 for shorter barrel guns I'd load a faster powder than 2400, expecting to get about as much, and waste less powder. But, that's just me, and if you get results with 2400 that you're happy with, in a 4" by all means, use it.

Now, I keep hearing how today the powders with the old names are not the same as they used to be, and only modern data should be used with modern powder, and I won't dispute that. It's never wrong to be safe.

However, personally, I still have the powder I used back then, and still load the loads I worked up back then, and they are still the same in my guns as they were back then. When I do finally get new production 2400 I will work up my loads with it all over again, just to be safe.

One more point, about 125gr JHP and carbine speeds. You need to CAREFULLY choose the bullet for proper performance. Nearly all the 125JHPs are designed to open up at handgun speeds and the extra 500fps + you can get from the carbine overspeeds those bullets beyond their design limits and they expand explosively when they hit. (think varmint bullet expansion) This usually results in very poor penetration and therefore a really bad choice for hunting any kind of game animal. Hell on varmints though. :D
 

Nick_C_S

New member
Thanks for the clarification and the story 44 AMP.

I think you and I are on the same page; but with maybe slightly different thresholds of what you vs I consider efficient regarding slow powders and short barreled guns.

In my first post, I gave my account of 125/2400. To recap in simple terms: I consider the combination silly for short barrels. But 158's okay - that's where you and I seem to differ. BTW, I load 158's with W296 too. And that loading is indeed overbearing (report, recoil, flash) in a 4". That loading is reserved for my 16" Henry - where it outperforms the 2400 loading by 100 f/s. In the 4", there is little difference in velocity (1275 f/s neighborhood).

You make a good point regarding the use of 125's through a carbine (or longer). As you mentioned, the hollow point profile may expand too violently for proper terminal performance. I agree. (This is also why my 158/W296/Henry loading uses a JSP; and my 158/2400/Revolver loading uses a JHP.)

For the record, my 125 JHP loading uses Power Pistol. If memory serves, the Speer manual lists 9.5gn as the minimum loading; and I use 9.4gn. So I'm a 1/10 grain under minimum and yielding 1314 f/s (4"). I think that's plenty of velocity. I've tested as high as 9.7 grains; but 9.4 seems to run just fine. I don't like tearing up my guns.
 

buck460XVR

New member
Inconsistent data for almost any handgun powder/bullet combo is why I always reference at least 3 sources of published data whenever starting out with a new combo. Extremely high and low discrepancies are generally thrown out to start with and I tend to stick with those recipes that agree. What I have found in .357 with it's relatively small case capacity is that bullet profile and cannelure make a big difference in velocity. While bullets sometimes give relatively the same OAL, because of their profile, and where the cannelure is located on that profile, the base of the bullet may seat deeper in the case and thus result in smaller case capacity. Don't take much to make a difference.

FME, with light projectiles in .357, it seems faster powders work just as well as slower powders, regardless of barrel length. Looking at the recipes the OP gives, you can see that PP results in higher velocity than 2400, while developing lower pressure, using about half as much powder charge. If both powders cost the same, one would conclude that making the move to PP would be a smart move.
 
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Charlie98

New member
From my point of view, its a matter of performance and efficiency. In the shorter barrels (and I mean shorter than 6") 2400 usually gives around 100fps (if that) more velocity at max than some medium burn rate powders, and you're burning more powder to do it.

I agree, I've found the same thing with IMR4227. I read a article somewhere that raved about IMR4227 in the .45 Colt, so I loaded some up for my 5.5" Vaquero. Man, that was a disappointment... I could have used half as much Unique and gotten the same velocity.

The tables certainly change when you put them in a rifle-length barrel... I load IMR4227 in .41MAG for my Marlin 1894... it REALLY shines there. I laid in 2# of 2400 this summer to load and compare to IMR4227, just for the sake of testing.

With the exception of W296/H110, I feel Unique is about as slow as you should go, generally speaking, in a handgun with a barrel length shorter than 6". If you are trying for the 'inth degree of velocity... in a short-barreled pistol... just jump over the mid-slow burners and go straight to the Lion's Den with W296.
 

IKE

New member
First off......I've not shot this load over a chrony nor have shot them over 25 yds. off of bags.

Hands down the most most accurate load in my 4" GP100 and 6" Security Six is 16.6 grs. of 2400 under a Remington bulk 125 gr. JSP.

Using all the concentration I can muster slow firing both guns single action off bags with iron sights they will both make one large six round jagged hole at 25 yds.
 
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