all brass shotgun shells?
- Thread starter Deja vu
- Start date
Model12Win
Moderator
All brass shotgun shells were used in WW2 and Vietnam because they wouldn't swell and jam the gun like paper shells.
and available from Brownell's:
http://www.brownells.com/items/brass-shotgun-shells.aspx
http://www.brownells.com/items/brass-shotgun-shells.aspx
DU has loaded ones "pricey"
A few yeas ago, I won a bow of these at a DU banquet. Gave most of them away. Went looking for these and here is what I cam up with. .....
They are pricey but perhaps it might help ......
http://www.ammo-one.com/12GA-DUCKS-UNLIMITED-01.html
Good Luck and;
Be Safe !!!
A few yeas ago, I won a bow of these at a DU banquet. Gave most of them away. Went looking for these and here is what I cam up with. .....
They are pricey but perhaps it might help ......
http://www.ammo-one.com/12GA-DUCKS-UNLIMITED-01.html
Good Luck and;
Be Safe !!!
Mike Irwin
Staff
"All brass shotgun shells were used in WW2 and Vietnam because they wouldn't swell and jam the gun like paper shells."
The first shotguns issued to American troops in World War I were issued with paper shells. The drawbacks became rapidly apparent, and they were quickly replaced with brass shells.
After World War I, the military largely eliminated shotguns except for some special cases, thinking that they wouldn't be used again, so when American troops were issued shotguns, it was again with paper cased shells. These were an absolute disaster in the Pacific, and Western quickly started loading brass shells again, the M19round.
By the time Vietnam came around, plastic shot shells were increasingly in use with the military, and paper cased shells were only being used state side for training.
Early on WW II era brass cased shells were issued, but these were quickly depleted and replaced with the XM162 plastic-cased shells with the classic 00 buck load, usually civilian production red hulls with the commercial manufacturer's headstamp, but military markings on the side of the hull.
Later the XM257 round was issued, which swapped out the 9 00 buck pellets for a load of around 27 pellets of No. 4 buck.
The other Vietnam-era round was the ill-fated flechette round. These proved to be very unpopular as they weren't very effective, and they were rather quickly withdrawn.
In the 1950s the military started issuing multi-purpose survival rifle/shotgun combos to aircrews. The shotshells, developed and supplied by Western, were all aluminum cased and generally loaded with No. 6 shot.
They were not intended to be used as combat weapons, only for survival purposes in hunting food.
The first shotguns issued to American troops in World War I were issued with paper shells. The drawbacks became rapidly apparent, and they were quickly replaced with brass shells.
After World War I, the military largely eliminated shotguns except for some special cases, thinking that they wouldn't be used again, so when American troops were issued shotguns, it was again with paper cased shells. These were an absolute disaster in the Pacific, and Western quickly started loading brass shells again, the M19round.
By the time Vietnam came around, plastic shot shells were increasingly in use with the military, and paper cased shells were only being used state side for training.
Early on WW II era brass cased shells were issued, but these were quickly depleted and replaced with the XM162 plastic-cased shells with the classic 00 buck load, usually civilian production red hulls with the commercial manufacturer's headstamp, but military markings on the side of the hull.
Later the XM257 round was issued, which swapped out the 9 00 buck pellets for a load of around 27 pellets of No. 4 buck.
The other Vietnam-era round was the ill-fated flechette round. These proved to be very unpopular as they weren't very effective, and they were rather quickly withdrawn.
In the 1950s the military started issuing multi-purpose survival rifle/shotgun combos to aircrews. The shotshells, developed and supplied by Western, were all aluminum cased and generally loaded with No. 6 shot.
They were not intended to be used as combat weapons, only for survival purposes in hunting food.
TheDevilThatYouKnow
New member
People keep saying that but can never seem to come up with a photo of a cartridge or even a model number.
I've tested flechette rounds and if the ones at gun shows* are Anything like the ones supposedly used in Vietnam the useful distance
is about 3 meters.Flechette rounds from a 40mm or 105? Yeah, that I can believe
*Reputedly the ones from VN were packed 18-20 per cartridge as are the ones from the gun shows. Unfortunately, you cannot pack 20 flechettes in a shotgun shell all pointing the same way; half of them are going to be pointing backwards to account for the fins.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Devil,
You'll see a picture of a pack of military Vietnam era flechette shells at this link in post 11, about 2/3rds down the page.
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/16671-usgi-shotgun-ammunition/
The program was apparently an extension of the artillery "Beehive" round, which packed something like 1,000 flechettes into a 105mm shell.
It's my understanding that the flechette rounds were not widely distributed and were fairly quickly withdrawn when complaints about their effectiveness started coming back.
"Reputedly the ones from VN were packed 18-20 per cartridge as are the ones from the gun shows. Unfortunately, you cannot pack 20 flechettes in a shotgun shell all pointing the same way; half of them are going to be pointing backwards to account for the fins."
That's exactly how they were supposedly packed in the shotshells. The theory was that they'd straighten out and fly nose first at some distance from the muzzle.
Apparently that wasn't even remotely the case, and the ones that did start out point first apparently even flipped around and flew fins first as velocity dropped.
I know of a couple of gelatin tests that have been done on modern flechette cartridges, and to be honest, I'd really question if the effective distance is even 9 feet.
You'll see a picture of a pack of military Vietnam era flechette shells at this link in post 11, about 2/3rds down the page.
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/16671-usgi-shotgun-ammunition/
The program was apparently an extension of the artillery "Beehive" round, which packed something like 1,000 flechettes into a 105mm shell.
It's my understanding that the flechette rounds were not widely distributed and were fairly quickly withdrawn when complaints about their effectiveness started coming back.
"Reputedly the ones from VN were packed 18-20 per cartridge as are the ones from the gun shows. Unfortunately, you cannot pack 20 flechettes in a shotgun shell all pointing the same way; half of them are going to be pointing backwards to account for the fins."
That's exactly how they were supposedly packed in the shotshells. The theory was that they'd straighten out and fly nose first at some distance from the muzzle.
Apparently that wasn't even remotely the case, and the ones that did start out point first apparently even flipped around and flew fins first as velocity dropped.
I know of a couple of gelatin tests that have been done on modern flechette cartridges, and to be honest, I'd really question if the effective distance is even 9 feet.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Mike, were those shells loaded with solid copper projectiles? I have seen some with solid copper shot and always assumed they were loaded for survival shotguns so they would not violate the Geneva conventions."
Hague Accords, actually.
And, I know of NO US military shotshell rounds that used solid copper projectiles. Some, used copper plated lead projectiles.
As far as I know, though, all of the .410 survival rounds were loaded with standard chilled lead shot.
I may be mistaken about the shotshells for the survival guns, it may have only been the .22 Hornet ammo that was market with prohibitions against use on enemy personnel because the rounds were softpoint.
There's a picture of the back of a box of .22 Hornet survival ammo here:
http://www.guns.com/2013/08/07/the-m6-survival-gun-backpackers-breakaction-combo-video/
The military also provided FMJ .22 Hornet ammo at various times. I don't know if it was also marked for non-combat use.
Description and pictures here (bit of a conspiracy theory site, but it's got good pix): http://www.kegisland.com/supersonic-hornet.html
Hague Accords, actually.
And, I know of NO US military shotshell rounds that used solid copper projectiles. Some, used copper plated lead projectiles.
As far as I know, though, all of the .410 survival rounds were loaded with standard chilled lead shot.
I may be mistaken about the shotshells for the survival guns, it may have only been the .22 Hornet ammo that was market with prohibitions against use on enemy personnel because the rounds were softpoint.
There's a picture of the back of a box of .22 Hornet survival ammo here:
http://www.guns.com/2013/08/07/the-m6-survival-gun-backpackers-breakaction-combo-video/
The military also provided FMJ .22 Hornet ammo at various times. I don't know if it was also marked for non-combat use.
Description and pictures here (bit of a conspiracy theory site, but it's got good pix): http://www.kegisland.com/supersonic-hornet.html