Air Force's Turn...
- Thread starter KurtC
- Start date
CobrayCommando
Moderator
And the cycle begins anew...
Is it really any surprise that:
A. The M9 weighs weighs more loaded then a 1911 with empty magazine in it, and this is less then satisfactory for a 9mm.
B. It is unreliable in sand and dirt
C. They are looking for a cartridge with increased permanent wound channel over 9mm ball.
D. The M9's grip is uncomfortably large for many
Because it sure as hell isn't to me. What is suprising is that this is apparently enough of a problem for the Air Force, and previously SOCOM/Marines to actually attempt to switch to a different firearm.
Sounds like the gun they are looking for is a SIG P220 Combat with modifications like an ambidextrous magazine release and some sort of adjustable grip system which won't be hard at all for SIG to do.
Exciting stuff anyway, makes good gunrag fodder.
Is it really any surprise that:
A. The M9 weighs weighs more loaded then a 1911 with empty magazine in it, and this is less then satisfactory for a 9mm.
B. It is unreliable in sand and dirt
C. They are looking for a cartridge with increased permanent wound channel over 9mm ball.
D. The M9's grip is uncomfortably large for many
Because it sure as hell isn't to me. What is suprising is that this is apparently enough of a problem for the Air Force, and previously SOCOM/Marines to actually attempt to switch to a different firearm.
Sounds like the gun they are looking for is a SIG P220 Combat with modifications like an ambidextrous magazine release and some sort of adjustable grip system which won't be hard at all for SIG to do.
Exciting stuff anyway, makes good gunrag fodder.
CobrayCommando
Moderator
Maybe. It depends on what they mean by snag hazard. The 10 round mag sticks out about an inch from the P220. I mean, a threaded barrel, high profile sights for use with a suppressor and a tactical rail are snag hazards too. SIG makes a model with a manual safety.
The full size .45 USP I shot felt like a rattle trap so I'm biased against, but I will admit it seems to fit the specs better here.
The full size .45 USP I shot felt like a rattle trap so I'm biased against, but I will admit it seems to fit the specs better here.
teejhot.40cal
New member
What about the glock 21 or 22. They both meet the requirements.
CobrayCommando
Moderator
Unloaded the 21 is only 3 ounces lighter then the Beretta, loaded it is 2 ounces heavier then a loaded M9.
So by weight and the adjustable grip thing, along with the grip being too big, the Glock is disqualified. Plus the manual safety.
So by weight and the adjustable grip thing, along with the grip being too big, the Glock is disqualified. Plus the manual safety.
HorseSoldier
New member
The main interesting issue is that 40S&W has turned up as an option. There have already been some rumors about 40S&W getting its foot in the door, as far as military use goes. This seems to be another indication that the round may be type standardized by the military for limited use soon.
As for the possible options, I personally don't see the USAF going with a current production Glock, due to the lack of manual safety (I think they could get by with the full sized and compact 40 cal Glocks as far as many of the other requirements go). But, I've heard the JCP submission from Glock was going to incorporate a manual safety on the Big Army version, so they may still have that one ready to go.
The G21 won't cut it for the USAF (further hurt by a lack of compact, rather than subcompact 45s), given the number of small framed women in the Security Forces and elsewhere who'll be end users, but they could probably be a contender with their .40 cal full-size and compact.
That said, the desire for adjustable grip sizes and the ability to set the pistol up with various action types makes it sound to me like someone still wants the HK 45 that was in the running for USASOC.
As for the possible options, I personally don't see the USAF going with a current production Glock, due to the lack of manual safety (I think they could get by with the full sized and compact 40 cal Glocks as far as many of the other requirements go). But, I've heard the JCP submission from Glock was going to incorporate a manual safety on the Big Army version, so they may still have that one ready to go.
The G21 won't cut it for the USAF (further hurt by a lack of compact, rather than subcompact 45s), given the number of small framed women in the Security Forces and elsewhere who'll be end users, but they could probably be a contender with their .40 cal full-size and compact.
That said, the desire for adjustable grip sizes and the ability to set the pistol up with various action types makes it sound to me like someone still wants the HK 45 that was in the running for USASOC.
HorseSoldier
New member
Got to be DA or DA/SA or striker-fired. Single action isn't in the running.
vertigoing
New member
How about this...
http://www.vickerstactical.com/articles/ShotgunNews.pdf
It's HK's new 45...
I would also consider the Sig P220R DAK, and the S&W M&P in .40 or .45.
http://www.vickerstactical.com/articles/ShotgunNews.pdf
It's HK's new 45...
I would also consider the Sig P220R DAK, and the S&W M&P in .40 or .45.
HorseSoldier, .40S&W allready has a good toehold going on in the U.S. Military...It is now the official pistol caliber of the United States Coast Guard. In drug interdiction, Law Enforcement roles , its carried with Hollow Point ammunition.
In war zones where different rules come into play, FMJ is the carry ammo.
The CG have all of their aging M9 pistols replaced as of April 2006. The new official pistol is the ..the SIG P229R DAK .40S&W. This has for the first time, has the other services giving the 40
a serious look, and they are watching the CG's program with great intrest.
In war zones where different rules come into play, FMJ is the carry ammo.
The CG have all of their aging M9 pistols replaced as of April 2006. The new official pistol is the ..the SIG P229R DAK .40S&W. This has for the first time, has the other services giving the 40
a serious look, and they are watching the CG's program with great intrest.
CobrayCommando
Moderator
Did you even read the document? It specifically stipulates that the cartridge the gun is chambered in must leave a bigger permanent wound channel then 9mm. For the JCP thing that was postponed indefinately, it had to be able to feed a type of .45 ACP ball with a meplat called truncated cone. They want something that will kill faster.
The HK 45 and SW MP look like the strongest runners now. SIG would have to modify their P220 to qualify, if it already wasn't disqualified for magazine capacity.
On reliability, while the Glock is pretty much out, check out these torture tests:
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=462537
Awesome reliability. The USP compact chokes pretty bad though. I wouldn't want one in the desert.
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=462537&perpage=25&highlight=&pagenumber=2
Maybe because of those free floating magazines? I wonder if the full size and HK 45 are any different.
Theoretically a full size should be able to pass this test: http://www.streetpro.com/usp/torture.html
Whoops NM both the full size and the compact failed.
Last edited:
seeker_two
New member
For some reason, I thought most USAF pilots carried the SIG 228 b/c of its compactness. If so, why the impetus for change?...
Another thing that caught my attention...
It never said anything about a "manual" safety. Just a safety that can be deactivated w/o shifting a firing grip. This may put Glock, S&W, & the XD in the running....
Interesting....
Another thing that caught my attention...
It never said anything about a "manual" safety. Just a safety that can be deactivated w/o shifting a firing grip. This may put Glock, S&W, & the XD in the running....
Interesting....
UH1-D Rotorhead
Moderator
And..............
...wha's wrong with a Commander length Colt platform.....seems that it meets all the criteria????
...wha's wrong with a Commander length Colt platform.....seems that it meets all the criteria????