After Dark

[40ozflatfoot]

What techniques do you use for night handgun shooting under the following conditions:

illuminated target and shooter,

illuminated target only,

illuminated shooter only,

non-illuminated target and shooter.

Assume the above conditions with both conventional open sights and special night sights (i.e. Triton, Williams) WITHOUT laser pointers.

note: I use the word "target" only in a generic sense. The scenario to consider is one of self defense, and you're using your carry piece.

 

[Carry24x7]

Illuminated target and shooter = Shoot fast and true.

Illuminated target only = Timed fire head shots.

Illuminated shooter only = Duck, run, find cover, re-evaluate threat.

Non-illuminated target and shooter = Get cover, wait for your shot or wait for target to self-identify.

 

[James K]

Sounds about right. If you (the shooter) are illuminated and the target is in the dark, you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is one situation where a big magazine may help you to put out some covering fire while you get your delicate self the h-ll out of there.

Jim

 

[blades67]

Before this happens to you, get a good combat light. That will insure that the target is illuminated whether you are or not.

 

[C.R.Sam]

Agree with Carry and Jim.

If I can't see it AND can't identify it as a threat.....sho ain't gonna shoot at it.

If It's shootin at me and I can't see it, time to relocate.

Two years ago, in Kali briefly, dark condo parking lot, idiot walking his dog with laser pointer. First saw red dot sweep the blacktop and come toward me. Me did quantum move behind post. Then he spoke. He got lecture on how lucky he was to be breathing.

Sam

 

[croyance]

Ditto.
With 1, it doesn't matter if I have night sights or not, illuminated to me means that I can see well enough to identify the target, and see my sights clearly.
With 2, night sights are a plus, but can be done without. The threat is clearly identified. If I am in the dark, my sights look like black on black sights, if they are not night sights. Good enough for the situation.
Situation 3 is just bad news. Not only am I the only thing lit up, but my eyes have a much harder time identifying anything.
A laser sight would not have changed my actions.

 

[James K]

Hi, blades67,

I would defer to your undoubtedly greater experience, but IMHO, if I am in the dark or semi dark, the last thing I want to do is turn on a light that will make me a real neat target. Based on my limited experience, it will take a while to locate the target and meanwhile he has a nice bright light to shoot at, and my tender bod is someplace in the vicinity of said light.

(Of course if the "combat" light comes with vest, helmet, kevlar skivvies, Abrams tank, and other neat "combat" stuff, that is a bit different.)

Jim

 

[Onslaught]

the last thing I want to do is turn on a light that will make me a real neat target

I read this remark all the time... It drives me NUTZ!

Okay, if you've got a Mag lite, and/or you're standing in an illuminated area, sweeping the dark with your flashlight, LOOKING for the target, then YEAH, but you're a COMPLETE IDIOT for using your light at all.

BUT, in a situation where you know the location of the target although you can't see them currently (they just fired at you, or it's a small darkened area, or you can see their outline only...) This is a PRIME example of what a good 6v or 9v high intensity light can do for you...

If you'd like a demonstration, take a paintball, or water, or toy pistol into a dark room. Give a SureFire flashlight to your buddy, wife, whomever... and after about 60 seconds, have them shine that light on you and see how long it takes before you can recover from the painful blindness.

A buddy of mine (a$$#ole) got my Streamlight Scorpion out of the center console of my truck one night while I was taking a "pitstop" on the side of a very dark road... He shined it on me as I was heading back to the truck. It was like the light was INSIDE my head... as if the light had physically smacked me in the face! It was coming from everywhere. There is no way in the world I could have even judged which gereral direction it was coming from, let alone see the actual flashlight shining to shoot at it.

The reason it drives me nuts... because as I mentioned to start with... you're right. If I was a complete moron and pranced around shining my flashlight everywhere yelling "ollie ollie oxenfree" (oh who cares how it's spelled) then I would be a big dumb target and deserve to be shot to thin the gene pool. But if I use my head, and practice the tactically sound methods as outlined by the "SureFire institute", I'm not going to be a target just because I turned my flashlight on at the appropriate time.

P.S. - I wouldn't use my flashlight anyway unless I was behind cover either....

 

[James K]

Yes, a super bright light can temporarily blind an opponent. But, if you can blind and disable an enemy with a light, why bother with a gun? If the light is so bright that it can blind someone at 50 or 100 yards, he is no threat and you just walk away.

Of course, if he gets a shot in before you can blind and disable him, you could be very dead, right on your magic combat light - the one with the bullet holes through it.

Jim

 

[40ozflatfoot]

If It's shootin at me and I can't see it, time to relocate.

Which could be the one thing the shooter wants you to do: come out of cover into the open, and new cover may not be easy to find in the dark. Wouldn't it be better to stay put, under cover, and wait for your chance?

 

[Schmit]

The way I was taught for non-illuminated target and shooter is to bring the gun & light up to firing posistion, illuminate and sweep (either left/right or close in/far out depending on the environment (house, outdoors, etc), if you pickup your target fire, if target is unfound, deilluminate (is that a word?), move left/right a step or two to change your posistion and repeat until target is found.

 

[Onslaught]

you could be very dead, right on your magic combat light - the one with the bullet holes through it.

Jim - I have no doubt that you personally could fire at and hit a flashlight .06 seconds after it is illuminated in your direction, but as for the badguys, I just can't see it happening.
This has always been my arguement with people who say a flashlight attached to a weapon will get you killed, because you can't hold it away from your body. If those bullets come a'flyin at your flashlight, I bet you couldn't cover the grouping with a Volkswagen beetle.

PS - If my combat flashlight was "magic", I would just deflect the badguy's bullets with the beam, sending them back in his direction (No, not yet, but I'm going this afternoon )

 

[Coronach]

Hmm.

Whats Rule 4?

JMO, but if you carry a gun, you carry a flashlight. Thats not to say you always have an opportunity or a requirement to use it, but for the rest of those times, its there.

Plus, you'll find that having a light is more handy than having a gun.

Mike

 

[Coronach]

Forgot to answer the question:

illuminated target and shooter: engage target and seek cover

illuminated target only: engage target and seek cover

illuminated shooter only: haul @$$ to cover, illuminate target, engage

non-illuminated target and shooter: illuminate target and engage

Mike

 

[foghornl]

The way my home is made, I can turn on the lights in the main room, while my bedroom remains mostly dark. Plus, with the X10 controls, I can strobe a couple of other lights, too. REALLY will confuse the bad guy, as lights are going on and off behind him....

Pluis, with the front room lit, I have just enough light coming in the bedroom to really see the white dots on my Ruger KP90.

 

[40ozflatfoot]

illuminated target and shooter: engage target and seek cover
illuminated target only: engage target and seek cover

Coronach,

Why bother to seek cover if you've already engaged your target? You mean...you mean...you might actually MISS?

The way I was taught for non-illuminated target and shooter is to bring the gun & light up to firing posistion...

Schmit,
That would be taking a chance, wouldn't it, to sweep, reset, sweep, reset, etc unless you were under cover yourself and didn't have to worry about the BG sneaking around to your flank or rear? Seems like, if you don't illuminate the target the first time, you've just put yourself on the map. Somehow, a step or two just doesn't seem like enough. Out of curiosity, do you know if this technique has been used successfully in a real situation?

 

[Marlin1894]

There are several different options for using a flashlight. One is to hold the flashlight in your non-shooting hand and cross it under your shooting hand for support. Another is to have the light mounted on the gun. A third is one taught by Rex Applegate, and that is to hold the light in your non-shooting hand as far away from the body as possible. This prevents you from getting hit badly, if at all, when the badguy returns fire. Granted, this position will not work in some situations, however it does give you some flexibility.

 

[fix]

illuminated target and shooter - open fire

illuminated target only - well, that would mean he's not much of a threat

illuminated shooter only - turn on M3

non-illuminated target and shooter - turn on M3

For those who question the use of a light, go ahead and go without one. I really don't care. However, I would be interested to hear how you'd deal with #3 above if you're out in the middle of a parking lot or other open area with no cover. Me? I'll take the light.