advantage of the tilting barrel...?

simonrichter

New member
Quite obvious, the titlting barrel locking system (aka Browning system) is by far the most popular today. HK has abandoned its delayed blowback approach lately, leaving Beretta is the only major manufacturer using other systems (these being the locking block and the rotating barrel approach). Nowadays, there is even a .380 pistol using the tilting barrel instead of straight blowback (Kahr P380).
I learned that locking block, rotating barrel and gas-delayed bb do have their advantages (accuracy, use of suppressors etc.), so why this dominance of the Browning system? Given that it seems to be the cheapest to manufacture, this would still not explain why relatively high-priced makers like HK or SIG Sauer also solely depend on the system...
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
Nowadays, there is even a .380 pistol using the tilting barrel instead of straight blowback (Kahr P380).
Going to a locked breech design allowed the pistol to be smaller and lighter than would be possible with a straight blowback design.
Given that it seems to be the cheapest to manufacture, this would still not explain why relatively high-priced makers like HK or SIG Sauer also solely depend on the system...
The assumption in this statement is that the other systems are somehow inherently superior and that the tilting barrel is inferior because it's simple and inexpensive. I don't believe that's true. The various systems all have their own unique advantages and disadvantages--it's a mistake to assume that the non-tilting barrel locked breech designs are obviously superior and therefore would automatically be employed by a high-end manufacturer if money is no object.

Unless there's some specific reason NOT to use the non-tilting barrel locked breech design, tilting barrel locked breech designs are a good choice for a variety of reasons INCLUDING simplicity, functionality and expense.
 

simonrichter

New member
it's a mistake to assume that the non-tilting barrel locked breech designs are obviously superior

I didn't mean to imply that in general, but in some aspects non-tilting systems ARE superior, so it's interesting that none of the anyway kind of pricy producers (German ones, mostly) add another system to their high-end product in order to get some distinctive feature (like HK used to do with the P7).

Recently, only Kel-Tec did that - with the PMR30...

Anyway, obviously your conclusion is right since the market is the way it is.
 

thedudeabides

New member
I've always been taught (whether it's true or not is up to endless debate) is that tilting barrel is what has made semis so reliable--and why they're everywhere now.
 

Wreck-n-Crew

New member
As far as tilting barrels go i am just glad they did it and that many followed.

to me it in helped to insure reliability by itself, and the others that followed gave us variety....I like variety :D
 

Theohazard

New member
The advantage of a modified Browning tilting-barrel lockup is simplicity, durability, ease-of-manufacture, and reliability. There is no separate locking block and no moving linkage; the barrel is usually all one piece. And because the chamber is still in the downward position when the round starts feeding, the round follows a straighter path up the feed ramp and into the chamber.

In theory, other designs where the barrel is fixed (or at least doesn't tilt) will be more accurate. But guns like the SIG P226 use a modified Browning design, and you don't hear people complaing about that gun's accuracy very often.
 

Wreck-n-Crew

New member
In theory, other designs where the barrel is fixed (or at least doesn't tilt) will be more accurate. But guns like the SIG P226 use a modified Browning design, and you don't hear people complaing about that gun's accuracy very often.
I think this is because some are splitting hairs and maybe using the comparison to some low quality design and manufacturing process of some floating barrels.

Good manufacturers have very little (if any on some models) movement with the slide forward in the firing position.

Really need to get out past 50yds (150 ft" ) to even to begin to measure the differences as relevant from what i have seen.
 

57K

Moderator
You also have to consider the disadvantages. With the gas-retarded blowback system in the P-7 and a couple of others, gas ports get dirty faster requiring more frequent cleaning or you run the risk of hot gasses not escaping as fast as they should, making the pistol more akin to a direct blow-back.

The locking block system Walther pioneered for the P-38 and used in the various 92 series of Beretta's and Taurus' have broken in higher numbers than what can be attributed to the Browning tilt-barrel system where the weakest link is usually the slide-stop with the pistols having the highest rate of breakage being some CZs where some questionable metallurgy was used and very quickly resolved.

The most promising system that keeps the barrel in a horizontal plane is probably the rotary lock-up system that's been around for a very long time but popularized by the Beretta Cougars and now the Storms where Beretta claims that through some redesign and manufacturing improvements, they have increased the accuracy potential of the design with the Storm. ;)
 

Walt Sherrill

New member
I learned that locking block, rotating barrel and gas-delayed bb do have their advantages (accuracy, use of suppressors etc.)

While the H&K P7 is much admired for its accuracy, I think the SIG P-210 is arguably it's match or superior, even though it's a tilting-barrel system. It would be interesting to see Ransom Rest evaluations of good examples of those two guns. (When I had a new P-210-6 some years back, it came with proof target that showed a 1.75" five-shot group at 50 Meters, or roughly 55 yards. I could never come close to matching that, but I don't think I could blame the gun.)

The most accurate guns are typically the ones that have had a great deal of time and effort put into them. The Berettas used by the Army's Marksmanship Training Unit are very accurate, but they are, in effect, custom guns -- handbuilt by the AMU's gunsmiths. I'd be willing to bet that the AMU gunsmiths could get equally impressive results out of SIG P-226s or P-228/229s. (Or SIG P-226 X-Fives.)

.
 
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2damnold4this

New member
I have a Heritage Stealth pistol that was a real *****cat to shoot with the gas delayed blowback. Unfortunately, the striker assembly flew out the back and was lost. I wish I could find the parts to fix it.

Another interesting pistol is the roller locked CZ52. It's more complex than it needs to be but it is fun to shoot.
 

Wreck-n-Crew

New member
The locking block system Walther pioneered for the P-38 and used in the various 92 series of Beretta's and Taurus' have broken in higher numbers than what can be attributed to the Browning tilt-barrel system where the weakest link is usually the slide-stop
I was unaware of the locking block system breaking in the 92's. Must not be real common given the reliability of the 92, and for that matter making it less common in the Browning Tilt barrel system assuming that's correct.
Guess you run into something new everyday.

Just the other day I ran into a brand (can't remember began with a u i think) of semi-auto that i had never heard of. The guy at the counter said man they have been around for years.

He added that they were purchasing parts from Colt's 1911 model and using them in their gun. Guess (from what i gathered) Colt stopped shipping them parts when they made the discovery.
 

wpsdlrg

New member
Tilt barrel is relatively cheap to manufacture.... and relatively easy to get right. Made correctly, it is certainly reliable, as well. Other systems (such as the rotating barrel, for example) are more complex, more expensive and tougher to engineer.

That's pretty much it, in a nutshell.

Browning was a smart guy - by no means the only one, of course - but quite good all round.
 

Theohazard

New member
I learned that locking block, rotating barrel and gas-delayed bb do have their advantages (accuracy, use of suppressors etc.)
As far as rotating barrels, they don't work very well at all with suppressors. However, tilting-barrel designs work great if your suppressor has a piston (Neilson device), which almost all do. And gas-delayed designs will be louder with a suppressor because of the extra escaping gas.
 

57K

Moderator
Wreck-n-Crew, they were not common and neither were the fewer examples of CZ slide stops breaking. I believe they occurred more with the Beretta than they did with the Taurus and if memory serves, when Beretta adapted the 92 for the .40 S&W model 96, they also improved the heat treating process which they incorporated into the 92/M9 series. With the 96, they also did some redesign of the locking block and slide recesses for longer lock-up. ;)
 

Wreck-n-Crew

New member
My brother has a Taurus 92 stainless Brazil model....one of the early ones.

Thing is so light and balanced for a all metal 5.5" full size.

I would assume the Stainless barrel has an advantage over a treated steel barrel of the earlier Taurus 92's ?

Either way, i want one (of the newer ones) all Black stainless 92's
Taurus or Beretta:D
 

Dragline45

New member
Given that it seems to be the cheapest to manufacture, this would still not explain why relatively high-priced makers like HK or SIG Sauer also solely depend on the system...

Actually Sig is not solely dependent on a locked breech design. The Sig 232 is a straight blowback pistol. Mine is extremely accurate and I have pulled off 1.5" groups in rapid fire, not bad for compact .380 .

I was unaware of the locking block system breaking in the 92's. Must not be real common given the reliability of the 92,

It's not common in the sense that most people don't get anywhere close to the high round count you would need to crack the locking block on an M9 or 92. But I think it's somewhere close to 20,000 rounds give or take that the locking blocks start to see problems. Although Beretta has updated the locking blocks and they are less prone to breaking even at those high round counts.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
I have some time at the moment and since this topic interests me, I'm going to ramble for awhile about some of the theoretical benefits and disadvantages of the three recoil operated actions. By that, I mean that this shouldn't be considered a thorough or exhaustive analysis of the topic--just my general thoughts on the matter.

A tilting barrel necessitates a larger opening in the front of the slide to accommodate the tilted barrel. The opening in the slide must be slightly oval to allow the barrel to tilt. That is a disadvantage since a tighter opening in the front of the slide provides a theoretical accuracy advantage.

The problem, is that all the rotating barrel actions and locking block actions that I am aware of, require the barrel to be tilted during the normal field-strip disassembly process. So the theoretical advantage is nullified by the practical consideration that some tilt must be accommodated to allow the gun to be field stripped/disassembled.

Most rotating barrel actions require some sort of locking block which adds weight and often results in the barrel being moved higher above the hand contributing to muzzle flip and slower recoil recovery. However, the STI GP6/Grand Power K100 design eliminates this locking block by using a helical cam that bears against a pin. So while the locking block is a disadvantage of most implementations of the rotating barrel actions, it's not an inherent limitation--it can be avoided.

The primary disadvantage of a rotating barrel lockup that I see is that it requires the cartridge/casing to rotate slightly inside the chamber (or rather the chamber has to rotate around the cartridge/casing) during both the feeding and ejection process. The cartridge/casing is held stationary, at least to some extent, by the extractor while the barrel rotates. That means that either the chamber needs to be a little more generous or kept cleaner or there will be more of a tendency to have feeding/extraction issues.

The Walther style swinging locking block actions seem to be a little more fragile than the other two designs which is probably why we never saw an official .357SIG version of the Beretta 96. My hunch is that this is a result of the way that the locking block engages the slide. There are two distinct engagement surfaces/points on either side of the locking block, and if they don't engage precisely the same, one "ear" of the locking block will be stressed more than the other and that can result in early failure.

The locking blocks do take a beating, and even though they are easily replaced, they are expensive enough that it can be a little painful to spring for one. In my opinion people obsess about this more than is warranted, but it is an issue that must be considered.

The other two designs can be set up so that it's easier to get uniform locking engagement so there's less likely to be assymmetrical stresses on the locking surfaces.

The rotating barrel design can be set up to allow the barrel rotation to partially counter the effect of the bullet "torque recoil". The motion of the bullet not only induces linear recoil as a result of the bullet's being propelled forward, it also induces a "twisting" recoil on the barrel (and therefore the gun) as a result of the bullet's being spun by the rifling. The gun twists in the opposite direction of the bullet's rotation. Theoretically, the designer can set things up so that the barrel's rotation during unlocking can counter this at least partially. I don't know how practical this effect is--it may be purely theoretical. I have access to two rotating barrel designs, and one is set up so that the barrel rotates in the same direction as the bullet during unlocking, the other is the opposite.

I suppose it would also be possible for the designer to use the "torque recoil" to help slow unlocking slightly, but again, I don't know if that's really a practical effect. I guess I should run the math to get some insight, but I'm not motivated enough at present to do it.

The tilting barrel lockup does provide a feeding benefit by dipping to make a straighter shot into the chamber from the magazine. That said, examination of the Beretta 92/96 design shows that it's clearly possible to design other styles of lockup to provide a straight shot into the chamber.

What it all comes down to, in my opinion is that the benefits of the rotating barrel and swinging locking block actions aren't really practically significant or are nullified by other design considerations and come with some (perhaps minor) disadvantages.

After mulling it all over, my take is that the tilting barrel design really doesn't have any significant practical disadvantages when one considers real-world implementations of all three designs. Therefore its simplicity and ease of manufacture (especially in its simplest evolutions which eliminate the need for multiple locking surfaces and swinging links) make it the most commonly employed design for recoil-operated locked breech pistols.
 

simonrichter

New member
Thank you all for the interesting contributions. There is always something to learn in this forum :) !

So, it seems that most of you agree that the market is going to boil down to the Browning system for major calibers (plus straight blowback for the weak and cheap, of course...)...? All considered, this true by now with only some exceptions...

Only one last thought to throw in: What about the (seemingly called off) advent of PDW calibers like 5,7 or 4,6mm? Handgun designs in this caliber seem to tend to alternative locking systems (like the FiveSeven or the cancelled HK UCP...)
 

Theohazard

New member
The PDW concept definitely wasn't called off, it just hasn't turned out to be very popular in the civilian market; it has a limited, but still important, military and law enforcement use. That said, there will always be a civilian market for the 5.7mm as long as they keep putting the FN Five seveN pistol in video games.

Rounds like the 5.7mm have an extremely high and fast pressure spike; normal handgun rounds have lower pressure spikes that last longer. If you used a SIG or Glock type action with a 5.7 it would probably cause excessive and dangerous wear to the chamber and breech because of the higher pressure on a slow-moving system, and at the same time there wouldn't be enough force left over to unlock the breech and cycle the action.

The Five seveN has a barrel that moves rearward with the slide for a fraction of an inch, just like many other locking mechanisms. I'm not terribly familiar with how it exactly works, but I believe the force of the bullet inside the barrel keeps the barrel pushed up against the slide, and when the bullet exits the barrel it stops being held to the slide and the slide continues its rearward travel. How the exact mechanism of this design works I couldn't tell you, but what it does is contain the large pressure spike while having a slide that's light enough to still allow the small amount of remaining energy to cycle the action.
 

Jim Watson

New member
"Torque recoil" against the direction of a rotating barrel is - or was once - known as the Searle Effect and figures into the design of the Savage pistols of 1907-1915. The barrel rotation is very slight, only about 5 deg, and appears to have little effect on the cycle of the action; more retarded blowback than recoil operated. When scaled up from .32 and .380 to .45 for Army trials, it resulted in a notably hard kicking pistol.

On the other hand, the Pedersen-Remington design, used for the .380 production model 51, was said to be a mild shooting .45 in the 1917 model 53 Remington Navy. (In those days, it was pretty usual for anybody's navy to have its own weapons, from pistols to battleship rifles.) But by then we were already into WW I and standardization ruled.

The Browning tilt-lock must have SOME actual advantage.
Else why would we seen Berettas, Tauruses, and Walthers running it? They all made their chops with separate locking blocks and touting straight line recoil. Yet they have changed to, or at least added the Browning pattern.

I wonder how many Walther/Beretta block systems we would see on the market if Sig Sauer or S&W had gotten the US Army contract in the 1980s.

Trivia: One of the requirements for the famously accurate Sig P210 was that it be as accurate as the .30 Lugers it was to replace in Swiss service, but less expensive to build. Think of that, a now $2500 gun was then an economy model.
 
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