Accuracy drop off after cleaning

[Jim567]

I have two savage rifles both model 11’s with 20 inch barrels.
It seems to take about nine rounds through both rifles, the 223 and 308 for accuracy to return after cleaning.
Three-quarter inch groups and less at 100 yards are easy to obtain with Fouled barrels with Hornady steel match.
I don’t consider myself overzealous in cleaning I do about 20 passes with a nylon bristle brush and patches with hops number nine after each outing.
One fouling shot doesn’t do the trick.
It takes about nine to get the best accuracy.
These are carbon steel barrels so I hesitate to not clean them after shooting.
I can’t see a solution to this, any suggestions?

 

[MarkCO]

All rifle barrels need to be refouled after cleaning. 5 to 20 shots depending on lots of factors. But, most barrels settle into their best accuracy after 50 to 200 rounds initially and then will hold that for hundreds of rounds, provided you do not clean them.

There are exceptions of course, but most guys shooing PRS/NRL/NRLHunter/Sniper matches let their barrel tell them when to clean it. 400 to 800 rounds is normal.

You live in a relatively humid warm location. The best bet is to, after shooting, run a wet patch of a bore cleaner that is intended for carbon only, or even a weak one. Then a dry patch, then an oil patch. Before you shoot, run a dry patch. That will protect your bore if you are worried about corrosion, but also leave your bore properly fouled for the several hundred rounds. When your accuracy falls off, the barrel has told you it is time to remove all the copper. Use a copper removing cleaner, get it clean, refoul and carry on.

When I live in CO, it is pretty dry so I don't even bother with that. Putting a hot barrel into a case does tend to promote moisture in the bore, so I let my rifles cool, or leave the cases open, before heading home from shooting.

 

[Shadow9mm]

You could just run a dry patch to push out any loose fouling, followed by a lightly oiled patch to prevent rust.

 

[10-96]

JIM567, There are still at least a couple of us who've adopted their own ways of using, or treating barrels and/or bullets with HBN. For what you're describing, it may be worth looking into.

The stuff is Hexagonal Boron Nitride which is a micro-fine powder that embeds in the barrel metal pores and creates something like a heat, moisture, and corrosion barrier. I suspend mine in 95-97% isopropyl alcohol into a milk-like consistency, and do a 10-shot shoot-swab run with a clean barrel. With 5.56, it's supposed to last 2k+ rounds. I have no data or proof on that, but my suspicion is that as it wears down, it allows the barrel to naturally wear and condition itself to require less fouling shots. The barrels i've done the treatment on no longer need fouling shots. To me, it's worth the little extra effort and it's TONS cleaner and easier to mess with than Molly.

 

[Jim567]

Thanks !!!

 

[jmr40]

Sounds normal.

Generally it takes a few shots to get accuracy, and POI back after cleaning. Exactly how many rounds it takes depends on the individual rifle. Once fouled I don't clean mine again until accuracy starts to decline. After a point they get so dirty that accuracy suffers. That also varies between individual rifles and could be 50 rounds, or 500.

I'll clean crud out of the action and wipe down the exterior after every use whether I fire a shot or not. But barrels are only cleaned a few times each year as needed. If the gun gets wet from hunting in the rain, yes. But otherwise only 2-3 times each year depending on how much I shoot.

Once I do clean one I won't hunt with it until I get a chance to go to the range and run a few rounds through it. I've been doing this since the 1970's and have never had any rust in, or on, a barrel

 

[44 AMP]

the thing about accuracy is, in order to be accurate (small group) things need to be consistent.

Each shot from a clean barrel changes the conditions more, proportionally than each later shot. Depending on variables barrels eventually reach a "fouling level" where additional shots do not change things enough to change the outcome, so the barrel "holds" its accuracy for a number of shots, until the total of each shots small change adds up to enough of a different to affect the accuracy.

Every rifle and load combination has the potential to be different, some in very tiny almost immeasurable amounts, others in larger more easily seen differences,

 

[tangolima]

That sounds about right. I don't clean my guns after each use mainly for that reason. That makes shooting even more expense than it already has been.

I only clean a rifle's bore when accuracy degrades or before it goes back to safe for storage.

-TL

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[bacardisteve]

Thats normal...i dont clean my bores until groups start to open and then it takes a few rounds after cleaning before they settle down.

 

[std7mag]

Are you using the rifles to shoot matches?
And if so, what type of matches?
Also, are these factory barrels?

As mentioned above, i've heard also the PRS shooters clean at 400-800 rounds.
F-Class & Bench Rest clean after every session. (25 rounds or less)
Then after a days shooting will clean them down to bare steel. Removing all the carbon & copper.

For shooting matches, consistency is king.
You can keep a barrel consistently clean.
But can you keep it consistently dirty?

 

[stagpanther]

Are you using the rifles to shoot matches?
And if so, what type of matches?
Also, are these factory barrels?

As mentioned above, i've heard also the PRS shooters clean at 400-800 rounds.
F-Class & Bench Rest clean after every session. (25 rounds or less)
Then after a days shooting will clean them down to bare steel. Removing all the carbon & copper.

For shooting matches, consistency is king.
You can keep a barrel consistently clean.
But can you keep it consistently dirty?

I'm not a comp shooter, but that's pretty much my philosophy.

My subjective opinion is that all these "formulations" are really nothing more than learning to adapt to the irregularities of your bore. A really good bore is generally going to need the least amount of cleaning and voodoo incantation ceremonies to figure out when it's shooting best. When a manufacturer says xx amount of shots to "break in"--I take that to mean it's up to you to work out the kinks.

 

[Bart B.]

The more accurate you shoot your stuff, the more often you will clean the barrel.

I've never had to break in a new barrel.

My 22 rimfire match rifles always put the first shot from a clean barrel almost 2 MOA
high. Cleaned every 30 to 40 shots

26 and 30 caliber match rifles put the first shot from a clean barrel about 0.5 to 1 MOA low. Cleaned every 30 to 40 shots

 

[tangolima]

All the rifles I have shot require 3 to 10 fouling shots to have consistent POI after cleaning. Unless I clean after each shot, I simply can't keep them consistently clean, but I can practically keep them dirty.

Look at our military snipers. They have to hit target the first cold bore shot, often in hostile environment. In my book, they beat any match winners. They don't, and can't, clean the bore after every few shots.

-TL



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[Bart B.]

Tangolima, for what it's worth, virtually all of the best military snipers are also top ranked competitive shooters. Both disciplines require skills and knowledge to make all shots strike close as possible to point of aim.

In 1972, my USN duty station manager told me the SEAL team desk wanted me to be a sniper and train them in small arms marksmanship details. He refused to let me go as I was involved in large arms marksmanship.

 

[tangolima]

Tangolima, for what it's worth, virtually all of the best military snipers are also top ranked competitive shooters.



In 1972, my USN duty station manager told me the SEAL team desk wanted me to be a sniper and train them in small arms marksmanship details. He refused to let me go as I was involved in large arms marksmanship.

I wouldn't be surprised. They are not mutually exclusive. I meant to say the job they have to do in the field is way more difficult and demanding than on the competition range.

Thanks for your service, Bart. I get to know a few real snipers. One young engineer whom I mentored turns out to be a retired marine sniper scout. He trained marine snipers before he left the service to finish his engineering degree. Meek, gentle, tenacious, industrious, and attentive to details, never talked about his combat experience, we would never know he was a sniper till someone looked him up. We only know he was with the Marines.

-TL

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[Bart B.]

Tangolima,

Are you aware of the fact that the most accurate benchrest rifles keep all record shots inside 3/10s MOA at 100 yards?

 

[tangolima]

Tangolima,

Are you aware of the fact that the most accurate benchrest rifles keep all record shots inside 3/10s MOA at 100 yards?

That's all well.

I still think it is more difficult to hit 8" target out 1000 yd the 1st shot, with all environmental variables, and without much of fancy gears. Not to mention you may be the target if you miss the first shot.

-TL

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[Bart B.]

The best long range competitors seldom put their first shot at 1000 yards within 5 inches of point of call.

For what it's worth, Hathcock's Win 70 sniper rifle was tested with its M72 30-06 match ammo at 1000 yards after he retired. The 10-Shot group was about 22 inches.

 

[hounddawg]

reminds me of the old doctor joke :

Patient - Doc it hurts when I do this
Doctor - stop doing that then


A lot of government snipers and tactical rifle shooters only clean only when accuracy begins to drop off. They may go several hundred rounds

A lot of benchrest shooter clean ever 15 to 20 rounds.

I clean every 80 - 125

you need to find what works for you

 

[std7mag]

I wanted to know the cold bore group size on a couple of my rifles out to 600 yards.
I found out by putting a target up at 600 and shooting 1 shot.
Took target down & repeated the next 4 days.
It just happened to be when the Marine Corps shooting team had rented the range for the week.
They were nice enough to give me permission to shoot with them.
The person (i can't tell rank) running the team had a quizical look on his face the first day.
By day 3 he knew what i was up to, and gave me a nod & a wink.

There is a way to find out how your gun shoots under certain conditions.
That's to go out & shoot it in those conditions.