A word from one of our "friends"

Brett Bellmore

New member
On the Right
by William F. Buckley Jr.
GUNS FOR MA AND PA?

The whirlwind tossing the GOP about reasserts the need to define a position on guns that has inherent credibility. But right away one runs into the implications of the Second Amendment. If the Bill of Rights was saying that all Americans had the right to own weapons without any qualification, we need to ask -- why? The National Rifle Association, acknowledged as the spokesman of what is called the gun lobby, reads that article in the Bill of Rights as guaranteeing the right to gun ownership. Again, why?
NRA President Charlton Heston has named that right to be pre-eminent. To believe that, one has to accept a reductionism: Man's possessions, property and freedom must be defended. If institutional defenses -- an army, a national guard, the local police -- fail you, then you are left alone with only your rifle by your side.

To aim at whom? If the aggressor is an army of occupation, a rifle is useful only as an instrument in a resistance movement. And that, probably, is what the authors of the Second Amendment had in mind, having only a dozen years earlier fought their way to freedom. They conceived of the man with his rifle as a member of a militia, a citizen-soldier. A subsidiary point here is that the right "to keep and bear arms" didn't have anything to do with hunting deer or pheasant. The right to bear arms had to do with the right to shoot people.

The threat of a foreign army taking over the United States is so remote as to be nugatory. Devotees of the right to bear arms have in mind self-protection as a contingent necessity. Not because our Army, Navy and Air Force have let us down, but because there are people all around the country who kill and maim. An essay published some years ago in The Public Interest spoke of a couple in their 80s living in the Bronx who had been tormented by muggers and pillagers, and found it possible to sleep only after acquiring a shotgun and posting a note on their door calling attention to it.

The major conceptual experiment of the day has to do with the question of handguns carried by individual citizens. The question before the house is: Does this practice in fact reduce crime by intimidating potential criminals? In Texas the idea is being tested. There you can get a permit to carry a handgun if you have no criminal record or detectable criminal propensity. Are we to believe that a mugger in the streets of Dallas will stay his hand because of a probability that the lady with the fur coat and diamond watch is carrying a handgun? And is fast on the draw?

Last year the University of Chicago Press published a book by faculty law professor John R. Lott Jr. with the provocative title, "More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws." Its thesis is precisely as given in the book's title: The more guns there are around, the less crime committed. Professor Lott specifically stressed the usefulness of guns for teachers and for minorities, both insufficiently protected against criminal behavior.

The postulate in Professor Lott's book is simple and dominant. In the summary of the book by Professor John O. McGinnis of Cardozo Law School at Yeshiva University, "Gun control does not decrease gun ownership by criminals but instead reduces their incentives to refrain from violence because it decreases the supply of armed law-abiding citizens who might resist them."

Well, the GOP is not about to endorse guns-for-everybody. The attritions the NRA objects to are in fact welcome, or should be. Checks against impulsive buys are a good idea, as also a record of guns sold and to whom. There is no need for assault weapons to protect against random individual aggressors. The proposition that you need to protect the right of citizens to own machine guns in case the modern Indians come charging in should be laid to rest as yesterday's reasonable demand, unreasonable in current circumstances.

But the orderly way for the GOP to proceed is by deferring to the rights of states to experiment with gun control in their own way. Some state policies can be opposed by appeal to the Second Amendment, and these necessarily go for adjudication to Washington. But the states should write their own laws governing traffic in arms, and the Republicans would be wise to acknowledge traditional apportionment of responsibilities.

COPYRIGHT 1999 UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE

With friends like this, et cetera...
 

Paul Revere

New member
William F. Buckley, Jr. is a wolf in a sheep's clothing. Don't let the fact that he calls himself a conservative fool you. The National Review magazine (Buckley's) is filled with moderate conservative rhetoric. It is an attempt to evolve conservatives into a neo-republican format. That is, one who thinks not of principles and values, but one who thinks of Globalism as an ultimate solution to peace.

When The National Review was given to me as a Christmas present from a fellow conservative friend, the first thing I did was read who was involved with the publication. When I saw William F. Buckley, Jr.'s name I immediately remembered his name from a list of possible "establishment" members. William F. Buckley, Jr. is a Yale Graduate who is a member of "The Order of Skull and Bones" (a Yale secret society tied to the conspiracy), "The Council on Foreign Relations" (CFR), and "The Trilateral Commission".

With those credentials, we need not consider Mr. Buckley a friend!!!
 

Coinneach

Staff Alumnus
Objectionable content deleted. Mea Culpa.


[This message has been edited by Coinneach (edited June 09, 1999).]
 

Engineer

New member
I saw the film of Waco. I saw the film of the Congressional "investigation". Those people still have their jobs. I consider NO ONE involved in polotics to be my ally, not even the NRA though I do support them.

[This message has been edited by Engineer (edited June 10, 1999).]
 

Trevor

New member
Implying that someone should be lynched because he does not agree with you is extremely reckless (especially for a gunowner) and in poor taste. I have complained about this thread to the moderator.
 

DC

Moderator Emeritus
I hadn't read this thread then a short while ago I was notified by e-mail (3) about it.

Apparently some of you have been listening to Spike Lee a little too much. Its bad that Spike said Heston should be shot, but its ok to discuss lynching someone who doesn't agree with you? I fail to see the difference.

While I do not agree with Buckley's position, Gun control is not going away, but Buckley is correct...it should be a States Rights issue, not a Federal one.

Control your passions and words folks, or we will demonstrably become what many antis believe gunowners to be: dangerous unthinking vigilantes.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
DC,
Help me out here.
If gun control should be a States Rights issue, not a Federal one, do you mean that states should have the right to implement gun control laws?
I would think the Second Amendment prohibits that. If the states could regulate guns, then the states also could regulate away all the other protections of the Bill of Rights.

I'm missing something here, DC....
 

DC

Moderator Emeritus
Dennis...
Thats how the Founders set this place up...the Federal gov't was never supposed to have this type of power. United States of America is a telling name...we are a confederation of states, with each Stae an allegedly autonomous power. The Founders believed that the individual State was the primary power and they all banded together to give the Feds the job of dealing with foreign powers and to mange the things we wanted in common...a monetary system, post office, roads, etc.

Although at the time, gun control wasn't even thought of as guns were necessary to survival...less than 5% of the population were urban, the rest was rural....

As for now...I'm not saying it is legal for a State to restrict guns...but it is, argueably, within a State's perveiw to enact laws that the populace votes on ( But it is definitely not the Fed's right or within its charter to even think about gun control.) If that becomes unconstitutional, then the Court must rule on it. The problem is that the Fed has usurped both State's rights and the Constitution. The Civil War was not about slavery, it was about State's rights. Don't forget as well, the North wanted maintain its industrial advantage/leadership/monopoly. Southerners were the ones who were settling the Southwest and West territories...slavery became an issue because the established Northern industrial states feared new territories with a cheap labor force outcompeteing them industrially. Slavery was outlawed after the war began, as a political (to appease the growing Abolishionist movement...who were borerline "outlaws" and a tactical war move.

Don't forget folks...back then people's primary allegience and even the Founders were to their own States

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"



[This message has been edited by DC (edited June 09, 1999).]
 

John/az2

New member
As a member of the Union, does that not require compliance with the Constitution? If so, that then would prohibit the infringment of the rights of the indiviuals by the states. Is that right?

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."

www.countdown9199.com
 

Destructo6

New member
I see we're getting into the

rural folk = moral and independent folk
city folk = amoral and dependent folk

argument. Do you country folk actually believe that?

I live in an area where you regularly hear gunshots in the middle of the night. A place where if you were in public, being attacked, you would be as on your own as if you were in the middle of the woods. We are all acutely aware that you must help yourself.

So, implying that a supposed comrade in arms as it were should be hanged for betraying us is reckless, eh? I suppose a pat on the back and maybe even a nice kiss would be in order. Heck, talking about guns is reckless too. Somone might get shot, talking about it.

Next time someone posts "First we hang all the lawyers" I'll be sure to protest.

[This message has been edited by Destructo6 (edited June 10, 1999).]
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
Unfortunately, Buckley reveals himself as just another brilliant ass. The man thinks an AR-15 is a 'machine gun'. Oh my. And, I wonder what he'd tell my LEO tactical carbine instructor when informed that an AR-15 is an excellent home defense weapon?

But of course, let's not let facts intrude on this beautiful prose ...
 

Jordan

New member
I, for one, am excited and encouraged by the groundswell of radical (?reckless?) posts that I've witnessed here at TFL as of late. Increasingly members have felt comfortable, that they are among friends here, and that they could come 'out of the closet' with their politicly incorrect thoughts.

So now I'll hear the argument: "But we aren't the only ones to read this and if any of this leaks out we'll be portrayed as...." As what? P!ssed as hell with our backs to the wall? I hope so. I hope they note that a slice of OTHERWISE WELL MANNERED, law abiding, productive citizens aren't asking nicely anymore. Only about 96% of us are going to go easy.

Censorship at TFL(and "for our own good" I'm sure)?? DC, did some men in suits show up at your door and say, "You'd better keep it toned down on that board of yours... or else!"? Count me in as a "no thank you". I hope that I don't have to begin looking elsewhere for my comforting daily dose of RECKLESS commentary.
 

Coinneach

Staff Alumnus
Jordan,

It's a matter of seizing the moral high ground, methinks.

The problem is that, although we're constantly portrayed as crazed, illiterate rednecks whose family trees don't have branches, we consistently use logic, reason, and history to back up our arguments, whereas the antis use ad hominem attacks and emotion... and they appear to be winning.

My frustration at this dilemma is reaching intolerable levels, and sometimes it comes out badly. Can't have that, or I'm just as bad as they are.

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"America is at that awkward stage.
It's too late to work within the system,
but too early to start shooting the bastards."
--Claire Wolfe
 

Brett Bellmore

New member
Coinneach: They don't just appear to be winning, they ARE winning. Why, despite the fact that we have the facts and logic on our side?

1. Thanks to public schooling, facts and logic don't persuade many people anymore.
2. Facts and logic which people don't get exposed to can't persuade them in any case, and our opponents have a virtual lock on every media outlet.
3. We're in a temporary hole because we bet the bank on a loser, the GOP, which turned out not to mean a single thing they'd claimed to stand for back when they were in the minority. Mind you, there were serious indications that that was the case before '94, but that's water under the bridge. We haven't had time yet to adjust our strategy to the fact that our supposed political ally is actually in the enemy camp.
4. We're trying to roll a rock uphill. I don't want to be to Marxist in my analysis of class interests, but put yourself in the position of a politician: What good is the Second amendment to you? Only the absolute most repressive regime would deny YOU the right to own guns. You've got armed guards ready to throw themselves in the way of bullets. The right to keep and bear arms is all downside, (It arms possible assasins.) and no upside at all.
5. Sheer entropy. Two hundred years is one heck of a long time for a poltical system to survive intact, and ours is finally breaking down. It isn't just the Second amendment the government treats like dirt, you know; It's the entire Constitution, and the very concept that the government is as bound by the rule of law as the people.
6. The elite ruling class have finally learned how to game the system, and exploit all it's loopholes, so as to render the government unresponsive to anyone but themselves.

Bottom line is, we are probably going to have to scrap this government, and start over from scratch. (Which makes it really important to understand how things went wrong, so we can do a better job next time. For a whole LOT of reasons, of which gun control is just one. It's just our fate, I guess, to live in interesting times.
 

John/az2

New member
I have to agree with DC on this one. He's not a politico who's taken an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution, so lynching isn't a solution here. He's just a poorly informed individual who has expressed a poorly back opinion.

Now if it were someone appointed by the people and under oath for the defense of the Constitution... Well then, isn't the punishment for treason, hanging?
smile.gif


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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."

www.countdown9199.com



[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited June 10, 1999).]
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
I don't believe the Bill of Rights applies ONLY to the Federal government.

If a state, even by popular vote, passes a law in violation of the Bill of Rights, then that law is unconstitutional.

Our problem (as a nation) is that we have let ALL our governments and their fletching subordinate agencies get away with way too much for way too long.

Grump!
 

Coinneach

Staff Alumnus
John sez: Well then, isn't the punishment for treason, hanging?

Sure is. Although tarring and feathering still has its good points...

Whoops. I didn't say that. Really.
 

Brett Bellmore

New member
John: Take another look at the latter half of Buckley's essay. Poorly informed he is not... He knows quite well that guns save lives, and gun control doesn't, and that it violates the Constitution. He just doesn't CARE.
 

Ivan8883

New member
From: Ivan8883@aol.com 6-11-99 630PMEDT I agree we cannot giv eup our guns,live in the coming Global Plantation the Elites have Planned for us and the entire world,and MOST IMPORTANT< WE CANNOT BE SILENT. We must inform as many people as possible about what our government( Icall it the US UNGovernment) has planned for us and what remains of other still free nations (Not many left, one less as Serbia caved in to one world Nato Army) Once gun control occurs,the slavery plan is a done deal. Let them call you a crazy or a radical. Who cares? Too many so called Conservatives are our worse enemy since thet are in reality wolves who have infiltrated the gun and Patriot movements. What would Thomas Paine or Patrick Henry said to someone who told them to watch what they said! Ivan8883
 
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