A Tale of Two Safeties

[TunnelRat]

Hi all,
I had some wrist surgery earlier in the week and have found myself with a lot of time to kill. My wife has assured me that if I go shooting and tear my stitches I can drag my own butt to the ER, so instead I went to my standard lgs. This is a big store with a lot of salespeople and they can have pretty different opinions and styles. This store gets a lot of new shooters, often couples, looking for new guns. There was one middle aged couple looking for a carry handgun. Specifically they looked at three models: a SIG P938, a Kimber Solo, and a S&W Shield. They were interacting with a younger salesperson who is typically very knowledgeable and does a good job helping people pick a handgun.

To make a long story short, I took issue with a comment he made on safeties. The couple really seemed to like the SIG P938. But the salesman informed them that manual safeties on handguns are a bad idea. The couple would inevitably forget to remove the safety and find themselves in trouble. Only an experienced 1911 shooter should own a gun with a safety, and even then it's not a great idea. I'm not 100% opposed to this mentality, none of my guns currently have safeties, they're all DA/SA. What he said next was what made me raise my eyebrows. The husband asked why he hadn't mentioned the dangers of safeties on the Solo or the Shield. The salesman informed them that the safeties on those pistols were unneeded and very small and could thus be left off without any concern as they weren't likely to get turned on accidentally. He made the argument that a small safety that could be left off was preferable to a large safety that had to be kept on.

Now I didn't say anything. It's an opinion I've heard many times before and it's not my place to argue in front of a customer. But this is very much against my mentality. I've had plenty of bad luck over the years and Murphy's Law is an old friend of mine. To me if a gun has a manual safety, you have to train to remove that safety, even if you consider it unnecessary and would leave it off. In that case I'd rather a safety that was easily manipulated (I'd rather no safety at all, but for the sake of argument say that isn't an option).

Do you think it is acceptable to leave an "unneeded" safety off (i.e. S&W Shield) and assume it will stay that way? Or if you have to have a manual safety, would you prefer it to be something easy to manipulate (i.e. SIG P938) and assume you always have to disengage it?

-TR

 

[AK103K]

I think if you choose a gun that has a safety, then you should learn how to work it, and always assume its "on", and act accordingly when you handle it.

If youre planning on counting on it, then you should always handle it to the point everything about it requires no thought.

As you said, Murphy always seems to pop up at the worst moment, and you know how that safety will end up when you need it most, and have never prepared for it.

 

[SHE3PDOG]

The only gun with a safety I have is a USP. I just leave the safety off, but I don't find it difficult to use either. I think I'd rather have a low profile safety kept off than one that sticks out a bit. I'd be worried it might engage by accident.

 

[HKFan9]

just one persons opinion, and he isn't exactly wrong or right.

It is like trying to argue between condition 1 and condition 3. I think condition 3 is an outlandish idea, only asking for trouble. Others love and swear by it.

I have told customers before the safety on the shield, if you don't like it.. don't use it. That being said I do also see the flaw in that logic and I point it out to them.... basically I give them an ultimatum. It is up to their training and practice and comfort level. Sad but true, 99% of people purchasing carry guns, know very little on how to properly deploy or use one, you wouldn't believe some of the things we hear or get asked from customers, and even when we try to veer them away from buying a handgun, they make a rash decision and buy it anyways.

The Sales person is just a man.. we are not all walking gun encyclopedia's. I know a lot sure, but I learn something new everyday. We all have our opinions, and as much as we try to stay subjective, its tough. Honestly 7 out of every 10 customers asked me what I personally carry, and I refuse to tell them, because what works for me, might not work for them, and I wan't them to decide what THEY want. Now if they narrow it down and are looking over a gun I personally own or carry, on their own determination, is when I tell them that yes I personally trust my life to this firearm.

 

[iraiam]

I use mine

If someone wishes to not deal with a safety, then they should buy a gun that does not have one, If the gun has a safety it should used IMO.

I don't mind safeties, and if the gun has one, I use it, they are nothing that cannot be easily overcome by training,

For example, I find the slide mounted safety on a Beretta 92 no problem at all. Some people hate them.

 

[gyvel]

Reflex and muscle memory come into play when using a gun with a safety. Unfortunately, not all safeties work the same.

I learned a lesson during an informal "walk and shoot at a surprise target" game I played a number of years ago. The pistol I was carrying at the time was a .32 CZ50, whose safety works the exact opposite of a 1911, so, when I encountered the "surprise target," and went to fire (you guessed it) I actually applied the safety and was unable to fire.

I guess the moral of the story is either be 110% familiar with the gun you are using or avoid using a safety at all.

 

[m674011]

ever gun comes with at least one saftey

keep finger out of trigger their is ur saftey

 

[g.willikers]

^^^
Exactly.
But there are other things, besides the trigger finger, than can yank a trigger.
I prefer pistols with easily manipulated safeties, whether they come that way or can be modified with after market ones.

 

[TunnelRat]

just one persons opinion, and he isn't exactly wrong or right.

It is like trying to argue between condition 1 and condition 3. I think condition 3 is an outlandish idea, only asking for trouble. Others love and swear by it.

I have told customers before the safety on the shield, if you don't like it.. don't use it. That being said I do also see the flaw in that logic and I point it out to them.... basically I give them an ultimatum. It is up to their training and practice and comfort level. Sad but true, 99% of people purchasing carry guns, know very little on how to properly deploy or use one, you wouldn't believe some of the things we hear or get asked from customers, and even when we try to veer them away from buying a handgun, they make a rash decision and buy it anyways.

The Sales person is just a man.. we are not all walking gun encyclopedia's. I know a lot sure, but I learn something new everyday. We all have our opinions, and as much as we try to stay subjective, its tough. Honestly 7 out of every 10 customers asked me what I personally carry, and I refuse to tell them, because what works for me, might not work for them, and I wan't them to decide what THEY want. Now if they narrow it down and are looking over a gun I personally own or carry, on their own determination, is when I tell them that yes I personally trust my life to this firearm.

I am not and did not criticize the salesman, so I am not sure where this is coming from. I am merely discussing the mentality he was suggesting. I have worked in sales before and my wife does now. I understand the complications that can come up. Like I said I like this guy, I have worked with him before.

 

[44 AMP]

While the clerk is certainly entitled to his opinion, I do have to wonder....

Only an experienced 1911 shooter should own a gun with a safety, and even then it's not a great idea.

HOW is one supposed to be come an "experienced 1911 shooter" without a gun with a safety? (specifically a 1911?)

And I wonder how he feels about safeties on long guns? And before someone chimes in saying its an "apples and oranges" thing, its not. The difference is in the details, not the principle.

personally, I think if you are the kind of person who worries about "forgetting" the safety, why aren't you the kind of person who worries about forgetting to use the brake in your car?

Nobody does that, right? Why not? Because we all get "training" on the brake, every time we drive. DO that with your gun, and you won't forget the safety, either.

I have been in situations where I couldn't fire, because the safety was on, and I hadn't taken it off, but it wasn't because I forgot. Just the opposite, in fact. But what I was "remembering" to do (below the conscious level) wasn't the right thing to do for the gun in my hands at that time.

I AM a firm believer in ALWAYS using the same system for defensive arms, no matter which one you choose. Save the guns with safeties that work opposite (or are in a much different place) to your carry gun for range & recreational use. Keep ALL guns carried for defense (including the not carried home defense guns - nightstand guns) on the same system. Either no safety, or down is off, etc., no matter which one you prefer, stick with it, DO NOT mix them.

 

[TailGator]

In my opinion, the clerk overstated his case about an otherwise legitimate concern. It is certainly possible to be in deep trouble forgetting to disengage a safety. Training needs to be extensive enough to make it an automatic part of gripping the pistol, and it is realistic to recognize that not everyone will train that much. The presentation as you relate it is a bit over the top, though. There are trade-offs to consider with every decision that is made about firearm features, including safeties. I often don't care for blanket recommendations.

 

[MacD19]

Safety or No?

Had a shield, got rid of it because the safety would engage with holstering and reholstering. That's a good way to get killed. Moved on to a Glock 19. No safety, point and shoot. Now I don't have to worry about it.

 

[thedudeabides]

Being behind the counter of a gun shop doesn't bestow you magical and mysterious powers of handgun design and engineering. Yet many guys are self-proclaimed experts with the prejudices and opinions that either comes out of ignorance or arrogance.

I've heard enough recommendations about trigger safety striker fired guns being "the best there is" for novice shooters almost as much as that "you should just get a DAO revolver with a 40# trigger pull." Also that women, the elderly, and novice shooters need as "simple" of a gun as not to harm, confuse or discourage them.

External thumb safeties are bad, because everyone is too stupid and panicky to disengage one in an emergency situation. 1911s are guns for "experts" and "enthusiasts" because it takes 10 hours of gunsmithing just to get one to shoot reliably.

Some motor pool guy who carried an M9 while parking Strykers in Iraq and fired an AR a few times in basic isn't a "tactical expert," no matter how many back issues of Soldier or Fortune he has laying about in his trailer, or that he wears camo BDUs to work.

I have my own list for a gun for carry or defense

-If size is a concern, get the smallest gun you can shoot well
-If under dry firing the trigger sucks, it won't get any better
-Try to get range time with the gun you want (rent before you buy) if at all possible
-Don't base your choice around cartridge (recoil or presumed lethality)
-Revolvers are always a good choice
-you have to train and train and train with the gun you choose, so get one you can live with
-always buy one frame size larger than what you think is small enough
-a 1911 is no more complex than any gun out there
-the guy behind the counter can be as much of a liar as a car salesman, so research what you want on the interwebs

 

[TunnelRat]

Training needs to be extensive enough to make it an automatic part of gripping the pistol, and it is realistic to recognize that not everyone will train that much.

Agreed. I think in essence that was his argument, that unless they were willing to devote the time it could be problematic. I agree. But to me the customer has to make the decision as to what they are or aren't willing to train with. That plus the contradiction with the S&W Shield threw me for a loop.

 

[James K]

For a DA/SA or DAO pistol (including the Glock type), a manual safety is usually not needed and not used; the gun is carried with the hammer or striker at rest, requiring a long trigger pull for the first shot. If there is a safety, it often acts as a hammer drop, though there are some DA/SA pistols that can be carried "cocked and locked."

For an SA only pistol, like the 1911, a manual safety is needed if the pistol is to be carried cocked. There are some people who insist that they can safely carry a 1911 with a 4 pound trigger pull cocked without engaging the safety. IMHO, those "safety is between the ears" folks are at best optimistic and at worst dangerous to themselves and others.

Jim

 

[TBT]

In complete agreement TunnelRat.

 

[phillip69]

it would be near suicide to carry my uncles 1911 with 2# trigger cocked and safety off.

I will upset the glockmeisters, but glock leg is too prevalent even with the 'professionals' for me to carry like that.

THAT said, I believe from my limited experience there is no better designed gun than the simple 32 part glock. So my glock 21 & 30S EDC have 1911 style Cominolli safeties on them; 3000 round of practice a year make those safeties no brainers for me and eliminate chance of glock leg.

 

[44 AMP]

it would be near suicide to carry my uncles 1911 with 2# trigger cocked and safety off.

If the grip safety is fully functional and you don't do anything wrong (or stupid) it should be perfectly safe to carry.

Shooting a 1911 with a 2lb trigger is an invitation to a burp gun.
(burp gun = runaway full auto fire)

personally I greatly prefer the added peace of mind the thumb safety gives me.

 

[Sarge]

No single system is perfect for everyone. The intelligent user will pick a system and practice with it until its operation becomes part of the subconscious.

 

[RC20]

Frankly I remain conflicted as to how to deal with an DA/SA with a safety.

I currently leave the only one I have off if I carry it, my other one has none.

That said, I do not consider the little trigger thingy or the straps safety's

to me they are "interlocks".

Those have proven to be accidentally engaged and resulting in NDs.

The more interlocks you have (XDM) the safer you are, but none have proven foolproof (having had some history in other area of trying to make things fool-proof I can testify that someone will find a way to defeat anything).


That said, I do believe a striker should have a safety and be treated like a 1911, though S&W is the only one offering that stock.