A question about case fill.

[mrawesome22]

Let's say that you load two diiferent Hodgdon extruded powders to 37gr. Will they give the same case fill? What I mean is, does one granule of H4895 weigh more or less than say one granule of Varget? Do you see what I mean? If a granule of H4895 is lighter than a granule of Varget than the H4895 is going to take more volume to get the same weight as Varget. I ask this because in my .22-250, the more the case is filled, the better the accuacy. I've also figured out that Winchester primers flatten in my gun no matter how lightly they're loaded. I'm starting to think that maybe it's headspace. But this is how I set up my FL die. I raised the ram all the way up and lowerd the die till it touched the shellholder. I tried sizing a case and it would not chamber. So I turned the die in another 1/8 turn and this time they chambered. So I've left it there ever since. Do you all think this makes for correct headspace? What really baffles me is this. If I take a fireformed brass, it chambers perfectly. Now if I take a fireformed brass and FL size it when the die is touching the shellholder, it will not chamber. Take that same brass and turn the die in a 1/8th turn, wala, it chambers. What the hell? That doesn't make any sense. FL sizing should make it SMALLER not bigger right? I think about this crap while I'm laying in bed. It really is an addiction. LOL, thanks guys.

 

[castnblast]

When you full length size the brass, you are compressing the case back down. That is when the case expands forward. That is why if you full length size your brass, you do so first, then trim the excess. The brass "flows" forward ever so slightly, engthening the case upon compression w/ ful length resize. I FL all my hunting brass, as it chambers better. From my experience w/ 22-250, (I'm new to the caliber, but have researched a ton, and reloaded for 20 + years, w/ a brief break in between) and the charge you are using, (as most) you are near max, which is typical of that caliber from what I've learned from others on this forum, and my gun as well. You are going to need to trim those cases everytime you full length resize.

As for the powder, each powder has a slightly different density per granual. If you look at charts, you will see some powders w/ the c next to them are compressed loads. The loads you are shooting don't appear to be but if you take a look at a question I posted last week, the volume can vary by each lot on the SAME powder by as much as 16% + or -. that volume does not appear to have an effect on the pressures created. From what I understand, it has something to do with the extrusion process. I had this issue w/ some IMR 4064. My case is now full w/ the same charge that had some extra room before. One thing I do is tap each case w/ the funnel on to settle the powder. I also sift the powder before dumping it in my powder hopper. It seems to pour better. It's a trick someone taught me years ago. I have no idea why it works, but it really seems to make a difference in the way it flows & meters.

As for the primers, I bought some Winchester factory ammo to shoot in my gun before my dies came in for my 22-250. The primers in the factory stuff were flat as a pancake. I wouldn't worry too much about the flat Winchester Primers. I use CCI Large Rifle primers w/ 36.50 grs. of IMR 4064 w/ 55gr. Sierra Game King Spitzer Boat Tails...It works in my gun, and the primers don't flatten, but that load is also .2 grs over max. So only load this w/ caution, and I'm not advocating that you use this load. I have a brand new gun, and I'm not getting signs of overpressure, at the case head, nor am seeing an excessive amount of trimmings removed. I hack sawed a brass yesterday that has been through 5 firings to check. Case heads appeared to be handling the charge fine.

If you have any other issues, send my a private message & I'll get w/ you on it.

 

[Bill T]

A good example of powder density to weight is the new Trail Boss powder by Hodgdon. It was designed for cowboy action shooters who load light charges in the .45 Colt. It has a very high volume to weight ratio filling the case near compacity on a light charge weight. This helps prevent the possibility of a dangerous double charge. The powder looks like little minature donuts. Bill T.

 

[cdoc42]

RCBS die instructions tell us to do as you did - turn the die down until it meets the shellholder.....then turn the die another 1/4 turn so all the play is out of the system....which is what you did by experimentation, except you only turned it 1/8.

That 1/8 may be just enough to set the shoulder back so it fits in your rifle, no others -and that is an accident because nothing was measured. You can get a set of tools to put onto your calipers from Stoney Point (I forget the exact name and I'm no where near my stuff) that allow you to measure shoulder setback as you set up your dies. Usually setting back 0.001 to 0.002" will allow chambering, slow brass flow, but it will be for your specific rifle as it is not typical full-length sizing.

Re powder, what you speak of is density. Some granules are hollow, others not, some longer,all of which affects burn rate. Some have more retardent on that others to affect burn rate. So equal weights WILL occupy different volumes.

I have read - and experienced - that a case relatively full provides better accuracy. Slower burning powders generally fill a case more than faster burning powders. The internal case capacity differs with various case brands, so you should not mix brands of cases. Bullet seating depth also chnages the internal case capacity and affects pressure - good article in the most recent issue of Shooting Times on this.

 

[mrawesome22]

Castnblast, I've measued just the cases length after firing a factory round and it chambered fine. From my notes they were 1.921". After trimming to 1.902" then FL sizing to where the shellholder was touching the die, they would not chamber. Turn the die in 1/8th turn and they chamber fine. 37gr was just an example. I'm max loading for Varget and a full 1.1gr under max for H4895. But ALL loads give me flat primers.

 

[Bill T]

I use care when full length resizing. I do not pre load my press. 1 it is not necessary, and 2 it's a good way to screw up a press over time, especially a turret press. I keep a piece of .002 or .003 shim stock handy and screw in the sizer die until a get a slight drag on the shim between the shell holder and the top of the die. Thats it. I then lock the die down. I have never had a reload not chamber in any gun using this method. If you use Carbide dies and have the habit of preloading you can shatter an expensive die that way. Bill T.

 

[castnblast]

mrawesome22... That was exactly my point. The stretch does not typically occur until after the full length case resize. The resizing is what stretches the case...Seems wierd, but when you compress the case back down to size, the brass which stretched out is now forced back to original size. The squeeze actually forces the brass back up, which is what you trim off. Not trimming after a resize results in inconsistant neck lengths, which will affect your accuracy some. A case that is too long will crimp your bullet, possibly resulting in over pressure, and a potentially dangerous situation. If you use a collet neck die, you don't get the stretch. The only issue w/ that is they can be harder to chamber for hunting rounds, as they are a bit thicker, and won't feed as nice as a full length case resize.

As for the charge, I'm not familiar with your load. I was using mine as an example.

Good luck, let me know if you have any questions.

 

[WSM MAGNUM]

mrawsome22 says;

If I take a fireformed brass, it chambers perfectly. Now if I take a fireformed brass and FL size it when the die is touching the shellholder, it will not chamber. Take that same brass and turn the die in a 1/8th turn, wala, it chambers.

It is from the expander ball pulling the case shoulders forward an inconsistent amount, so do this:

Clean and lube the insides of your case necks before sizing, or get the full length bushing type dies sold by RCBS or Redding, or have your full length size die retrofitted with neck bushing.

As an experiment, measure the protrusion of a case sized with the expander/ decap stem in place, then remove the expander/ decap stem, run the same case through the size die again, measure it`s protrusion.
If there is much tension/ drag at all on the expander ball, it will in fact pull the case shoulder forward. How much depends on how hard it is to pull the expander back through the neck.

 

[amamnn]

One thing short of buying benchrest dies you can do to make the case neck/shoulder relationship more consistent in both length and concentricity is to lube the clean neck inside and out with fine ground mica or graphite. The case outside shoulder and body may be lubed as usual. I like Imperial sizing wax for that. Avoiding liquids in case lubing will help eliminate powder contamination and the extra cleaning step necessary after their use. Redding markets the wax and graphite. I bought the wax years ago and am still using the same can. I bought mica from Frankford Arsenal about the same time and have not used half the 4 oz jar yet.

 

[mrawesome22]

Castnblast, sorry, I was backward on that. I DO FL size before I trim. Sorry about the mixup. WSM MAGNUM and AMAMNN, after just a couple minutes in my infancy of reloading, I realized I needed to inside neck lube. I take a neck brush in a drill and run it through the neck. Then I use Imperial sizing lube on a q-tip to lube the inside. I highly doubt the expander ball is pulling the shoulder foward because when I use the wax it glides through there like a hot knife through butter. Then I tumble. Yes, I bought a tumbler. O.K. here's a question. In your guy's experience, what powder for .22-250 gives the best case fill? I've found that the more the case is filled, the tighter my groups are. I just can't seem to find ANY powder for this caliber that gives good case fill. But I've been experimenting with faster burning powders also, and if what cdoc42 is correct, maybe I'll try some slower burning stuff. I also think I'm done with FL sizing except with new brass. I bought a Lee Collet die and all my flat primers have gone away. All my firing pin strikes are directly in the center of the primer now also instead of off center. And yes, I'm only shooting them out of this gun. And it is a Rem 700.

 

[redhawk41]

Lee manual lists useful case capacity of Remington .22-250 as 2.75cc.

Lee manual also states, H450 gives 40gr @ 2.61cc and A-XMR-4350 goes 36gr @ 2.66cc, among others.

QuickLOAD software also determines % case fill for many powder/cartridge combinations, but it'll cost 'ya!

 

[Jim Watson]

A .22-250 case full of IMR 4350 - about 40 grains - is very accurate in my Ruger.

 

[hivel37]

Ditto what Jim said on IMR 4350. You're on the right track w/Lee collet die.

 

[georgia wildcatter]

in response to your headspace problem,please try this.if fireformed cases are fine then why work your brass to death each time you load? using a 40 to 60 thousandts spacer under your fl die will act like a neck sizing die and it wont push the shoulder forward causing the tite bolt!an added benefit to this is that the unsized portion of the body and the neck better aligns the centerline of the barrel and bullet resulting in better accuracy in most cases.it has nothing to do with case trimming as the neck portion in the chamber is much longer than that!as an added benefit,less working of the brass results in far fewer trimmings anyhow!!!! hope this helps.....

 

[mrawesome22]

Georgia Wildcatter, the Lee Collet die is a neck die. I bought it so I could use fireformed brass. The ONLY time I FL size now is on new brass. But I shouldn't have to get new brass very often because I've been told that neck sizing is far easier on the brass than full length sizing.

 

[georgia wildcatter]

sorry about not reading your post carefully.have you tried smoking a case with a candle and adjusting your die so as to leave about 20 0r 25% of the neck unsized?seems that the die is either way too tight on the body of the case or is adjusted way too deep and deforming the shoulder/neck juncture somehow!! my suggestion about the shims is very useful for a properly adjusted fl die to back it up and it wont need readjusting everytime you need to bump the shoulder a little!!!as for collet dies i use and recommend redding and have great success with them..

 

[mrawesome22]

Right now I am just sizing about an 1/8" of the neck. Just enough to keep the bullet in place. I've tried pulling a bullet out of the case with pliers and couldn't do it. So I think sizing just 1/8" of the neck is plenty. I'm set on neck sizing. Don't even have to worry about headspace and case head separation. Now I just have to get some IMR 4350 and try it.