A non-controversial, non-offensive topic, I promise!

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Mylhouse

New member
Have any of you either been in a situation or know of a documented shooting in which either:

1) Mag changes or speed loader recharges were required because of an extended shootout

or

2) A high capacity magazine made the difference in saving the good guy's bacon?

I ask because often times we make sure we have plenty of high cap (read: standard capacity) mags around, often at a super-premium price. I also read of many armed citizens that carry a seemingly inordinate amount of spare ammo/mags on their person. IIRC, one gentleman carried a Glock 17 with a +4 extended floorplate AND 3 more similar spare mags, giving him a total of EIGHTY-FOUR rounds ON HIS PERSON. Don't get me wrong, I will be the last to criticize this practice, but has this level of precaution ever come in handy?
 
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KilgorII

Guest
I should be getting my carry permit in the mail in the next 10 days. I carry my Glock 26 with 11 rounds of 9mm around the house now. I don't believe I will feel undergunned with 11 rounds of 9mm in 98% of the cases where I will have to draw my weapon. Being as how seldom drawing my weapon will be needed, I think that 98% when I have to draw is good enough for me.
 
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buzz_knox

New member
84 rounds? Is that all? Must have been a SEAL or LRRP in a past life.

If I thought for a moment that I'd get in a situation that I needed 84 rounds . . . I'd stay the hell home!

As to the original question, the barber shop shooting in NY where the NYC cop w/ a 5-shot revolver comes to mind. She had no reload and was forced to pick up a perp's weapon and continue the fight. There, a lack of reload almost cost her and the civilians she was protecting their lives.

As for statistics involving number of shots fired, I look at it this way: if I have to draw and fire my gun, I'm already in the minute percentile of armed citizens forced to use deadly force. Why take the chance of being in the small percentile who have to take advantage of regular-cap mags or speed reloads and not have that ability? I don't want my tombstone to say "He died for lack of shooting back."



[This message has been edited by buzz_knox (edited July 10, 2000).]
 
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Hard Ball

New member
During a police action I was flying behind enemy lines as a Forwrd Air Controller I could not carry a rifle or a carbine because of the configuration of the aircraft. My main concern if I went down was to avoid capture until a rescue helicopter arrived.
I carried a Colt 1911A1 .45ACP with 14 spare magazines giving me a total of 106 rounds. Fortuneatly I never had to star in "Hard Ball at the Alamo", but there were two occassions when all those spare magazines were vwey comforting.
 
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Erik

New member
As a general rule, I feel that I am safe in stating that the "need" for 23 or more rounds in greatly exagerated. While there may be exceptions, as with any rule, I imagine those exceptions are confined to military and tactical applications. Am I wrong?

What is the greatest numbers of documented shots fired from a handgun in a gun fight, by the way? Civilian? LEO? Military?
 
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Bartholomew Roberts

Moderator
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KilgorII:
I should be getting my carry permit in the mail in the next 10 days. I carry my Glock 26 with 11 rounds of 9mm around the house now. I don't believe I will feel undergunned with 11 rounds of 9mm in 98% of the cases where I will have to draw my weapon. Being as how seldom drawing my weapon will be needed, I think that 98% when I have to draw is good enough for me.[/quote]

True; but if you have to draw then that 2% has the potential of sucking pretty badly.
 
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KilgorII

Guest
You are right. I am taking chances. But then that is what everything in life is right? A chance. I may slide a spare mag in my left pocket, I am not sure yet.

I am very interested to hear if the lack of a reload has cost a civilian his/her life in a gun fight too.
 
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James K

Member In Memoriam
I know of one case where a police officer emptied his 17 shot Glock at a "BG" (a drunk who was waving an old .32). He missed with all but number 17.

It might be a good idea to learn to put the first two or three in the right place instead of worrying about carrying two dozen extra magazines and a case of spare ammo. (Unless you work for the FBI.)

Jim
 
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maxinquaye

New member
Overheard from some very wizened old shooters who should know down at the range-

"The safest place to be when the local cops pull out their weapon is directly where they are trying to shoot...it's the one place your least likely to get hit"

Everything I've heard from those who work at/are owners of ranges cumulates to the single fact that 85% of cops can't shoot for s***.
 
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Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
Well! I am ashamed of you guys! You have not read Jeff Cooper's "Principles of Personal Defense".

In the Chapter, "Principle Three: Aggressiveness", he tells of a pupil who was assaulted by four men armed with revolvers, just as the pupil arrived home, pulling in to his driveway. "Being a little the worse for wear, he violated (or just forgot) all the principles of personal defense but one and that was the principle of aggressiveness."

The BGs fired first; the pupil responded with 22 rounds in less than twenty seconds and the would-be assassins panicked and ran.

So there you have it.

(Separately, although nobody, no BG, was hit, the gunfight was a success. That is, the hostile action toward the pupil was ended.)

:), Art
 
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Guy B. Meredith

New member
maxinquaye,

This is getting off subject, but when I went to the monthly PPC match yesterday after about 6 mo. absence I noticed that the attendees had changed. Though the PPC is officially LEO only, our group had been a good mix of civilians as well. Yesterday I was the only non-LEO and the lack of adherence to safe practices had me watching my back!!
 
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FUD

Moderator
This sounds like my wife's uncle -- he carries a Browning Hi-Power with an extended 21-round mag and three spares for a total of 84 rounds.
FUD
fudsmile.gif
 
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Halffast

New member
I carry a 1911 with 9 rounds in the gun and two spare 8 round mags. I don't think I'll ever need that many rounds, (I hope I never need a single shot) but like having the extra mags in case I need to drop one to clear a stoppage. It also helps to even the weight of the gun on my hip. I believe that everyone should carry at least one reload. Just my $.02.

David

------------------
"There are people who do not mind the fact that O.J. Simpson walks free. There are people who do not mind the fact that Lon Horiuchi is not only not punished for his atrocity at Ruby Ridge, but he continues on the public payroll. There are those who know who killed Vince Foster, but are not bothered by the fact that the subject has been dropped officially. I mind those things. Do you?" - Jeff Cooper
 
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markp

New member
Earlier this month ,a Phoenix police oficer named Franklin Brown was ambushed by 3 suspects.He did take an unknown number of rounds ,some which were deflected by his armor.Heard he was alone and wounded for about 20 minutes.Local tv stations played back the radio transmissions with the dispatcher.Brown suffered a bullet wound to one of his arms I think.I remember seeing something that said he fired ~20 rounds out of his Glock(caliber unknown-issue is the 22/23.Officers have the option of purchasing the 21).
Guy should get a couple of medals-PhxPD should hold him up as an example of what the correct mindset ,training and an aggresive attitude will do in a fight. http://www.arizonarepubliic.com/news/articles/0706ambush06html
http://www.arizonarepublic.com/arizona/articles/0708ambush08.html

Scouts Out
Mark P.
 
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dbrowne1

New member
According to the FBI UCR data, if you look at officers feloniously killed by firearms, in something like 95% of the cases there were fewer than 10 shots fired at them. And if you look at defensive and single assailant LE shootings, the trend is similar. Having said that, I'm in no hurry to give up any of my hicap mags, and one should always carry a reload if possible for multiple threats and in case of ammo or mag failure.
 
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pate

New member
You just never know when you might come across a couple assault rifle-toting bank robbers who suddenly believe they're Neil McCauley.
 
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