A non-controversial, non-offensive topic, I promise!

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Mylhouse

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Have any of you either been in a situation or know of a documented shooting in which either:

1) Mag changes or speed loader recharges were required because of an extended shootout

or

2) A high capacity magazine made the difference in saving the good guy's bacon?

I ask because often times we make sure we have plenty of high cap (read: standard capacity) mags around, often at a super-premium price. I also read of many armed citizens that carry a seemingly inordinate amount of spare ammo/mags on their person. IIRC, one gentleman carried a Glock 17 with a +4 extended floorplate AND 3 more similar spare mags, giving him a total of EIGHTY-FOUR rounds ON HIS PERSON. Don't get me wrong, I will be the last to criticize this practice, but has this level of precaution ever come in handy?
 
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LawDog

Staff Emeritus
Read Robert Waters book. One of the accounts is of a shoot-out in South Texas in which a CZ 75 was used by the good guy with at least one reload that I remember.

LawDog
 
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Jim V

New member
There have been several reports where LEOs were involved in shootouts, ran a high cap dry, reloaded and finished the problem. Many hits on the BG with no way of knowing which round was the one that really[b/] ended the problem.

I used to know a guy that carried 2 BHP's with 6 or 8 spare magazines. What a load to carry, 106 or 132 rounds, the weight of 2 pistols and the magazines.

------------------
Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
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Mylhouse

New member
I don't know how it happened, but sorry for the triple post. I guess I was having a fight with the computer. Even though I had to reload, the Mac still won.
 
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Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
You guys haven't read Jeff Cooper's "Principles of Personal Defense". Shame on you for not having done your homework. There will be a quiz, next period.

In the third chapter, he tells of a pupil who was assaulted by four men with revolvers. The pupil, returning home from partying, forgot everything but aggressiveness. He didn't hit anybody, but his 22 shots (two reloads) in under 20 seconds panicked the would-be assassins and they ran.

I guess the NYC cops reloaded when they shot that guy. 41 rounds? And one cop was on the ground (he fell?) during the affair?

I've always read that the FBI says that the majority of all gunfights involve very few rounds. Dunno about today's world, though.

FWIW, Art
 
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Ruben Nasser

New member
See the post referring to the infamous Miami shootout, more than 120 (140?) rounds fired by 5 agents and 2 BGs. Rare, but it can happen.
 
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RWK

New member
I believe it is important to distinguish between LEO and non-LEO scenarios in answering this question.

Ruben (FBI Miami) and Art (NYC PD) obviously refer to well known police shootouts, which certainly are very relevant to our many LE members. Even there, however, it appears that very few confrontations require more than six rounds.

For the remainder of us, does anyone know of a non-LE confrontation that required a handgun reload (i.e., > six rounds)? Thanks.
 
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Erik

New member
I believe the "need" over magazine capacity is over-hyped and created. If you are outgunned with, say, 22 rounds of 45acp or 18 rounds of .357 magnum then you need more practice, not more ammo.

Yes, there are a few instances where an unusually large number of shots was fired. In almost all cases, far fewer shots could have been fired to end the situations. But, TSHTF and out the window went aiming, tactics, and conservation of ammunition.

For the following categories, what are the average rounds fired from a handgun? The most rounds fired? More importantly, how many of the rounds fired were sprayed out, versus aimed hits on target?

1. Civilian gun fights.
2. LEO gun fights.
3. Military gun fights.

Of course, that's just my take on it.
 
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VictorLouis

New member
An anecdote: I went to play splat ball at an indoor arena with about 10 other co-workers. We all started with about 250 "rounds" each. At the end of 5 or 6 seperate sessions of play, I was the only one left with any ammo. But, then again, I spent a LOT of time behind cover, and only fired at relatively clear targets of opportunity. YES, I was lit up more than once-whenever I left cover! :(
 
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ctdonath

New member
I knew a guy who went thru about 50 rounds in a shootout. Three teens, each armed with a rifle, decided to use him for target practice at night with him in a lit parking lot and them hiding in separate unlit bushes. He had very little cover (the curb & lamp posts), and could only identify his targets by muzzle flashes and guessing. Fortunately for him, they were supremely bad shots. Some 50 rounds from him later they were dead and he was unharmed and later acquitted.

Fortunately for him, he had enough ammo. Fortunately for us, such cases are rare. (Sorry, no documentation on this one.)

Personally, I usually carry a Glock 26 (11 rounds). Occasionally I'll carry a Glock 17 with a +2 extender and two extra mags - that's 54 rounds without really trying (not much below your 84-round example). Fortunately I bought the large mags pre-ban.

A far greater likelyhood requiring multiple high-capacity magazines is finding yourself near the range with some spare time; I should carry more mags more often.
 
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Dave R

New member
I watched the "FBI Files" TV show about the infamous Miami firefight just the other night. The show made it pretty clear that 2 agents lost their lives because they were reloading. The BG with his Mini 14 advanced while 3 agents were reloading simultaneously, all crouched behind the same car. BG shot all 3 at point blank range. one agent (of the 3 behind the car) survived.

My bro. in law, an FBI agent, watched with me and told me that incident was the primary cause of a bunch of changes in FBI procedures. Keep a long arm in the car, not the trunk. Keep body armor in the car, not the trunk. Standard issue is now hi-cap autos with 2 mags.

This shootout was definitely not a typical defensive situation, though.
 
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ModIMark0

New member
I recall an incident iKaty, Texas on Jan 21., 1994 Travis Neel observed an police interception gone bad in heavy traffic (Deputy Frank Flores got shot 6 times and was down, wounded). There were 3 perps that appeared as if they might kill the LEO. The man took out his CZ75 with three high capacity mags and started shooting at the assailants to keep them away from the officer and probably hit them. He used 3 mags in the process and went back to his car to get his Sig P226 (had a shotgun in the trunk, but it was disassembled). He ended up keeping the perps from carjacking another car, and they fled into a subdivision
End of story was the officer recovered and returned t oduty, the bad guys were caught (were part of an 8 man organized crime gang) and received long sentences. The total amount of rounds Neel had used was 39.
I found this story in The American Guardian's 'Because I Was Armed' in the Nov./Dec. 1997 issue.
 
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ModIMark0

New member
Sorry, one correction to make. The shooting did not occur in Katy TX, but somewhere outside of Houston. Neel was driving to
Katy TX to a range when he got involved
 
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fubsy

New member
Whoooeee, glad to know its safe to take that gi can full of mags and ammo out of the trunk....now they were only there in case while driving I might run into a bear...lol..but this does bring up another point, how many rounds do you carry to protect yourself against a bear?..lol....sorry couldnt resist....
Its a good topic, I rarely have more than 1 or two reloads for the wheel guns and two mags for the 1911, and one for the hi-caps....fubsy.
 
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PreserveFreedom

Guest
Keep in mind. The government would like you to believe that you need no more than two or three rounds to defend yourself. That way it is easier to take away the weapons we need. RE: 1994 Clinton Crime Bill
 
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