A follow up.....

xraymongral

New member
After browsing this thread, and in light of a thread by myself, I thought a little followup was neccesary.

After reading many of the responsis to these threads involving Isreal, it is at the least very entertaining to see the depth of ignorance displayed by many on the topic of Israel/Palistine. Not the fault of many, they believe the mainstream press, or were brain washed by the military to beliveing Israels importance. Now a few facts:

1. The only reason we need Israel to be our friend in the middle east is because we alinated almost every other middle eastern nation by supporting Israel. Take Israel out of the picture, and there is not the anti-American animosity. Granted, there will be disdain over our society, more so amoungst Islamic radicals. By the way, the Palistinian issue has spurned the vast majority of the radical Islamic groups, without whom, there would be more peace.

2. The rest of the world, outside of the US and England, realises the "domestic" terrorism that Israel has practiced against Palistiniens.

3. Jews and Muslims lived in reasonable peace until Israel was granted Independance by England in 1947. The Jews were then given arms, while the Palistinians were left with little to defend themselves with.

4. Probably most significant point at the moment, you notice Usama Bin Ladin invoking the Palistinian cause. Why? Because evry single Muslim will support the cause of Palistinian freedom. Israel is across the board regarded as a "cancer" in the middle east that needs to be cured. Similer to our attitude about cancer, we will seek a cure until the cancer is gone.

5. There are actually Jews in Israel and abroad that do not support Israels treatment of Palistinians. They want a end to the violance regardless if Israel has to give up land or control. Will they be labled "anti-semetic" as I am sure many of you have labled me?

If you are interested in reality, start reading some foriegn news papers, or reading forign news websites. Also, if you have any friends from foriegn lands, if you can, talk to them about Israel, in a frank, non-biased manner. You may learn alot from them.

Myself, I have worked with, roomed with and have middle eastern friends. They are not all Muslim, many are Catholic. But the sentiment is the same, From Palistinian to Pakistani to North African. No U.S. support of Israel, no anti-U.S. sentiment. Also worth noteing, evryone supports peace. I mentioned to a Syrian co-worker the fact that the media is attempting to make a case for causes of the terrorism besides US relationship with Israel, he got a big belly laugh from what the media is doing.

I also have had the aquantence of many people that were Jewish as friends or room mates. It is funny that one Jewish friend of mine was room mates with a Palistinian. They both were in agrement of the wrong doings by both sides, and that peace is possible...if Israel is willing to make a few small concesions to the Palistinians, and if the Palistinians can seperate themselves from the radical Islamic groups.(Not all Palistinians are Islamic)

Now, as to why we "needed" relations with Israel. During the cold war, it allowed us acces to captured communist block weapons. It was also a front of sorts against the Russin supplied Arabs. Israel also allowed us a post that was somewhat close to Russian controlled territories/countries. A good place to test new weapons in combat situations. When Israel defeated Russian supplied troops with US supplied weapons, it was a definite moral boost to U.S. citizens. We also lost a ship to Israelie terrorism towards the Untied States. What a shame we didn't take Israel over after that happened. Well, the cold war is done with, and so is our need for Israel.

Should we back away from Israel now? Probably not, we should not allow ourselves to be bullied into doing anything. Should we re-evalueate our longterm stratagy in regards to Israel, and how we can start reducing suppert for Israel? Yes.

Anyways, just another injection of reality for the board. I know I will be labled "anti-semetic" by the ignorant, but I have not a single issue with a persons faith. Only issue I have is when a orginization trys to use that "faith" to manipulate or harm others.

Flame away.....
 

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
I guess I missed the others, but this one clearly is a thread for
"Legal and Political".

Look for it there.
 

Oris

Moderator
I nearly dropped from my chair reading this:

"Myself, I have worked with, roomed with and have middle eastern friends. They are not all Muslim, many are Catholic. But the sentiment is the same..."

I live in Detroit area, we got lots of ME population here, including
Christian Lebanese. Those Christian Lebanese ABSOLUTELY can not stand arab muslims. They always take the side of Israel
and btw, Israel takes their side... Little example - civil war in Lebanon.

Just an interesting observation.
 

Destructo6

New member
Anectodal evidence (ie a handful of people met or known) is not a good indicator of the attitudes of millions in the middle east.

We didn't create the problem in the middle east. We took a side and that most likely put us in the sights of the other side.

However, that's immaterial. We're at war and I'm not interested in my enemy's feelings any further than that which would help me to kill him faster. We need to follow the trail of terrorists and eliminate them. If that creates more trails, then follow those, too.
 

TexasVet

New member
Israel would never do (or have done) to us what was done on Sept 11. Period

Matt, tell that to the families of the American sailors killed on the USS Liberty, with intent and planning by the IDF Air Force . Israel will do anything and everything to protect Israel. Including killing friends if they think their security is at ANY risk.
 

xraymongral

New member
Matt, a popular thought in the middle east regarding who is behind the 9-11 attacks is that Israel is behind the attacks to bring the U.S. directly into the war aganst Muslims. Not my opinon, just that of others, indicative of there thoughts on the capabilities of Israel to wage war.

Destructo6, this is a little more then anectodal evidence. Read news from foriegn sources. Have someone that knows arabic translate Al Jazeera for you. You will find the same sentiment I have stated running very deep and strong.

Oris, I do not know the history of the civil war enough to comment, other then to say the Israel support of the Christans must not have been to great. Lebenon is still not a Israelie state, which it would likely be if Israel wanted it to be. Israel also has no problem with treating Christian Palistinians as equals to Islamic Palistinians. Once agin proving where Israels self interests lie.

Remeber what TexasVet said.
Israel will do anything and everything to protect Israel. Including killing friends if they think their security is at ANY risk.
We need to adopt the same policy, and Israel has compromised the security of the United States via there relations with us.
 

Matt Wallis

New member
Texasvet,

Condolences to you if you lost someone in that attack. But it's got all the marks of being nothing more than a "conspiracy theory" type thing. Two sides to the story, and the "it was an accident" side makes more sense to me.

And even that attack, tragic though it was, is incomparable to Sept. 11. E.g. It was a war zone... It was a miliatry target... etc. If it were a deliberate attack, it would still have been heinous. But it sounds to me like it was accidental. So my initial point still stands.

Regards,
Matt Wallis
 
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