A Downside to Being Armed - What would you do?

[Futo Inu]

Well, as all of us know, an armed society is a polite society. And we know that 99% of the armed populace is MORE polite and restrained to others, and will attempt to avoid confrontation, due to our being armed - mostly because we don't want to start something that may escalate into a need for a defensive firearm use, which results in much hassle and legal liability, not to mention guilt if you shoot someone. I too fall into this category, of being less confrontational when armed (though ordinarily, I can at times be quite confrontational, in accordance with my personality). So my being armed caused my some dischord yesterday, as to what to do:

I was in the parking lot of a China Mart - ehh, Wal-Mart, leaving with my groceries, when I spot what is in my opinion a form of child abuse occurring. It was a man in a small pickup with a small child about 2-3 years old in the passenger seat, standing up, AND with the music blaring so loud that it was "thumping" - you know what I mean - with the windows rolled up. Now, I can imagine that perhaps the seat belt or car seat belt was unbuckled after he entered the parking lot, so I really have no beef with the unrestrained child. BUT, there is NO excuse for harming that child's hearing with that stupid a$$ stereo system, IMO. No reason whatsoever why this should happen. Do it all day to yourself, by all means, but not to a helpless child. Now don't get me wrong - I'm a firm believer that one should be to raise his child however he wants, including spanking (if that's your philosophy), but senseless permanent injury of any type is inexcusable in my view. So I'm thinking, that's it, I'm following this guy till he parks and asking him if he feels like a big man for blasting his stereo like that with the child there, and calling him a dumbass in front of other people to haze him for this, and possibly get his license plate and report him to DHS - I was steamed. Now I'd ordinarily be fully prepared for the natural POTENTIAL result of this - that being getting my butt beat possibly. But being armed stopped me - I didn't want to start something that would potentially escalate into the need for a potential defensive gun use (if the guy proceeded to pull a weapon let's say). So at that moment, I actually wished I wasn't armed (first time for everything), and went about my business. So, that's a downside - your personality can be restrained - this could be viewed as good or bad in this particular situation, depending on your viewpoint - good for me, bad for the child, IMO. Oh well.... food for thought.

 

[qkrthnu]

I suppose you could have just brought the concern to his attention in a non-threatening manner. Try to lay a guilt trip on him vs getting him all wound up.

L8r,

QKRTHNU

 

[dfaugh]

If I was really angry, I would've said something anyway...I don't carry, either..If the ******* wants to F w/ me, be so be it( I've never had anyone do anything but back down when I've confronted them)...On the other hand, I've learned a long time ago, that there's not much I can personally do about stupid people...Wish I could somehow prevent them from breeding, though

 

[MatthewM]

DHS, "We'll confiscate your child while we investigate and have you prove you are a fit parent".

No, I would never call the "authorities" on something so frivolous. From the Dad's viewpoint, you would be attacking his entire family in a most viscious way.

Same goes for when the police and fire department shows up at my house & I'm burning a little bit of lawn refuse. Why doesn't my whimpy neighbor just walk over and ask what's up?

As to butting in, if you must, I would just say, "that music is very hamfull to your child", then quickly turn and walk away.

Myself though, I wouldn't bother & I'm glad your CCW kept you from it.

 

[yankytrash]

Shoulda' said something. Bringing a child up unmorally is one thing, but doing actual physical harm to the child is another.

Put it this way - if the man was boxing the child's ears with open fists, would you have done something? Well, it's the same thing as a loud stereo cranked up in the kid's ears.

Carry should not affect the way you would conduct yourself to right a wrong. Perhaps you should keep certain opinions to yourself that you normally would not, but protecting an innocent child should be first and foremost. If their father was to pull a gun on you for your trying to protect his own child, he deserves to be shot. Darwinism and all that, ya know.

 

[Chris W]

F.I.,

I think you did exactly what you had to do; and yes, I do see it as the reverse edge of carrying. You know that you must not initiate a confrontation that will escalate into something serious, if at all possible. There are times (like the one you relate) when some a*&^%$e patently needs to be publicly dressed down; shame is a potent motivator, and damage to a child's hearing is a good enough reason to employ it. Now it's all well and good for folks who aren't in the situation to say, "don't get all steamed up," but obviously you are, and it's going to happen sometimes. And that's exactly where this extra needed caution has to be exercised. It wasn't the confrontation you backed away from; it was your awareness of your own level of anger, which, combined with the fact that you were packing, made you too dangerous to intervene in this particular case. Should we all work on our level of anger, and on taking a peaceful buddhist-monk approach to every confrontation in life? Sure. But until we're there, you must know yourself and act with care, and you did. Kudos.

CW

 

[spacemanspiff]

would you be just as outraged and confront the individual if you saw him smoking in the childs presence? or how about speeding in his vehicle? letting the child eat as much junk food as possible?

as far as i'm concerned, unless there is imminent danger of injury or death, i'll let someone make bad decisions in how they treat their kids.

 

[jmlv]

MYOB

Just not worth the hassle YOU will be involved in. Would not involve dyfs personally feel most of THEM deserve to be shot! had close friends have to deal with them and anomous reports. He moved out of the state to get away from their harrassment. Ever had a judge tell you you HAD NO RIGHTS. If dyfs is involved he will. He currently has no tresspassing signs on his new property
and a large dog. If they try another B&E they will be sorry.(oh yeah they don't need warrents either!)

 

[Futo Inu]

Well, yeah, that's probably the best course of action - say something in a polite way rather than in an angry way, certainly - and reporting would be a last resort, of course. However, it's most certainly NOT frivolous, IMO. Just a fundamental difference in opinion of what's frivolous and what's not, I suppose. But yes, I suppose the trauma of shaming him in order to produce a change is what I was after, as some one articulated for me (thank you). If I said something without "shaming" him, he'd probably have just said "get bent", whereas he might think twice next time if publicly hazed. A change of behavior iin this yahoo is my primary goal, and venting of anger would have been my secondary goal, I suppose. And if everyone in society stepped in did this kind of thing, wouldn't we be better off? (shaming him, not reporting him I'm talking about). The answer is yes.

spacemanspiff: "would you be just as outraged and confront the individual if you saw him smoking in the childs presence?" In car with rolled up windows, Yes, absolutely!!!

"or how about speeding in his vehicle?" Yes, absolutely, depending on how MUCH over the speed limit and all conditions.

"letting the child eat as much junk food as possible?" Yes, but to a much lesser extent. Not the same thing as the first two or the case I mention, which DO in fact pose serious threat of permanent bodily harm to the child. I don't think it being "imminent" is relevant to whether it's child abuse, as you use the word "imminent". Speeding is an "imminent" danger the way I would use that word because it puts the child in POSSIBLE imminent danger of a wreck. Smoking and loud music puts the child in "imminent" danger of an irreparable "step 1" in cumulative permanent harm. In fact, it's PAST "imminent", it's happening! No, I'm all for letting parents raise their children as they see fit, PROVIDED that the children are not abused. You and I obviously have differing definitions of what "abused" means, however.

Having read what I just wrote, on second thought, I do not believe speeding in and of itself is abuse, but merely negligence. The other two ARE abuse, in my view (poisoning the lungs and snapping the eardrums of a child). Now I'd still probably say something to the guy if the speeding amounted to recklessness and given the opportunity, whether "abuse" or not. Speeding only becomes abuse WHEN the accident actually happens as a result of that negligence. The others are ALREADY abuse, IMO. Believe me, I hate the Gestapo DHS techniques as much as anyone, but some things are abuse, pure and simple, and warrant some kind of action. Maybe an extreme view for peeps on TFL, but my view nonetheless. I think we in society have an obligation to hold one another publicly accountable for wrongdoings. If we all did, then we wouldn't need the gestapo DHS that everyone hates, with good reason. Yahoos like this guy don't listen to reason - if he had reasoning, he wouldn't have done it. He needs a shock to the system, IMO. Matthew, is snapping the arm of a child somehow less "frivolous" than snapping the eardrum? Or not? Anyway, enough rant - it's not gun-related, so no point getting into a tizzy. The point is, there's a downside to CCW.

 

[PATH]

Unless the kid was in a life threatening situation I would mind my own business.

 

[GunGeek]

I would just say, "that music is very hamfull to your child",

I would change that to, "that LOUD music is very hamfull to your childs EARS"

Otherwise he may consider you one of those nut cases that think rock and roll is devil music (apolagies to any nut cases), make it clear you are upset with the volume of the music and not the type.

 

[spacemanspiff]

note: i am NOT defending the negligent actions of the thumping-music-listener... however, this is just the same as parents taking their kids to a concert where the sound level is much more dangerous than that experienced in a car.
it is a negligent action, just like speeding or smoking, etc. but don't live in a society where our young are raised by the majority of people. kids dont respect when others try to protect them, often they dont even respect when their parents try to. there are other societys where kids are comfortable being under the guidance and direction of any adult. ours is not like that. therefore, it amounts to peeing in the wind. okay, that analogy doesnt quite fit, but you get what i'm trying to say. its better to focus our immediate attention to ourselves and our families. at least in my humble opinion.

 

[C.R.Sam]

Frivolous,.....NO
Imminent danger of injury.....YES

At that time, the child was incurring perminent choclear damage and probable eighth nerve damage.

I would have tried to impress on dad in a friendly manner that the vollume was damaging his child.

He probably wouldn't understand, but I would give it one shot.

Sam

 

[E. BeauBeaux]

Guess I'll take some heat for this as I feel like we have enough do-gooder's. Minding one's own business really cut's down on confrontation's. I may not agree with many thing's I see but the fact of the matter is, it's not any of my business.

 

[DMK]

So at that moment, I actually wished I wasn't armed

Not that I would condone confrontational behavior, but there is an easy solution to your dilema. Unload, lock your pistol up in the trunk of your car and the mags in your glovebox. You aren't armed anymore and can do what you wish.

 

[sm]

CR Sam makes good point, VIII nerve damage is permament.

If not comfortable -or safe- to approach parent, maybe wait till mom approaches car and politely inform. If real police on lot, have them inform the adult of results of actions. Maybe there is a noise ordinance that would apply.

I have seen kids with equilibrum problems-sad, hope for daycare to have auditory testing and inform parents.

Granted , we all have rights and there are some 'gray areas' if you will, I don't appreciate being told that some of my ideas are "wrong". I have permission to "spank" my neice's and nephews for instance....some disagree with this practice, hell we have bus boards suggesting you turn people in for this--abuse they call it.

If I give a spat because child is misbehaving...thats one thing.

Adult driving drunk with child, (child endangerment) , beating wtih fist or objects, cigarette burns...yeah deserves reporting IMO.

Reality is this adult probably doesn't know or care. Even if child is Dx with damage--wouldn't care--probably get mad at the momma and abuse her too.

Yeah I think you have a legit reason to be upset--but as an CCW'ers we are held to a higher degree. Difficult at times agreed--we are human also.

 

[kpw]

I would have tried to impress on dad in a friendly manner that the vollume was damaging his child.

That's about the most you can do and the best advice. Carrying or not should have no impact on that. Unless someone is doing something that is clearly illegal, you may be in for more than just a "butt whoopin" if you did anything else. Everyone has differing ideas of what good and bad parenting is, some are clearly abuse, some are unintentional negligence and some are just nobody's business. You might have done him a favor by bringing it up in a polite way. Trying to shame him or anyone in public would probably just make matters worse.
Sometimes it's a hard choice about butting in or minding our own business. Think about when and how you do it real carefully.

 

[private_idaho]

"I was driving down this road in the desert and I saw the most horrible thing - a man showing his child how to shoot a gun! It was awful! Everyone knows how dangerous guns are, and we all know the statistics that a gun in the home increases the chance of people in the family being shot! Yeah, they had ear protection and stuff, but how could someone possibly expose their child to such an awful thing? Kids just aren't responsible or prepared to deal with Evil Deadly Weapons and there is imminent danger of death or injury from the gun, and there is certainly psychological injury...."

Not my opinion, but certainly there are folks out there that think this way, and truly believe it. I know there are arguments that this is not a true analogy, but I also know that not everyone would disagree. As you may have guessed, I tend toward the MYOB side of things.

As a side note, I, like you, definitely notice a change in my attitude when I carry. I am MUCH more careful to avoid confrontation.

 

[Crimper-D]

"Mind yer OWN Dam Bisjness Dude!"

Suppose Daddy cops a 'tude'? Are you seriously thinking this through some of the more drastic scenerios?
Likely the damage has alredy been to Daddy's hearing from driving around in a 4-wheel Boom - Box and people with noise-based hearing losses are notoriously short temperd when yelled at.

 

[70-101]

Sound's To Me Like

You did the right thing ,in doing nothing.Was the child crying,did he appear in any danger? Stay out of other people's domestic situation's.They are none of your business.ESPECIALLY if you are carrying a firearm.If there was a problem LEO take's a DIM view of concealed carry permit holder's picking fight's.